What to do with an engine

[MTCFORUM]

If you want something truely bullet proof.

Cobra crank. Order a new one from Dan Newman at Five Star Ford, about $400
Manley forged rods.
J&E forged pistons, lower the compression ratio if you are going to run a blower. If you are not going to run a blower, then raise it to like 11.5-12:1.

Get a set of '99 and up tumble port heads and have them ported by Fox Lake, they are outside of Akron Ohio.

Stick with stock 96-98 cams, not the 99 cams or any SHM stuff.

Run like the wind away from a stroker motor, especially with a blower or N2O, the ring packaging is bad for high cylinder pressures.

Have the intake extrude honed and go with a single blade throttle body.

Put a Novi 2000 on it with an air to air cooler.

Run 15-17 psi of boost and you will make 600 at the tires and be durable.

That's what I'd do.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

Now that is what I call interesting.. I would love to know more of this, and a ball park price...

[MTCFORUM]

Well, the cost would depend on what you started with. I have a friend that builds motors that can build you one if you'd like.

The rods are about $500, pistons about $500, The crank is about $450, bearings/rings/etc about $300, machine work for block is about $400, porting heads (remember, there are now 32 valves to port) $1500, extrude hone manifold $500, intake (call me I have a few handy), tumble port heads (no clue, but there are some new ones coming out and they are usually cheap when they first come out, I'd say $1500 when they come out), cams reuse from your existing motor, throttle body is $350, gaskets/etc $300, Novi 2000 w/cooler $5k.

Overall, you could do this for about 10k or less. This would easily give 550-600 RWHP.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

If you are happy with the power level that Dennis had you could save 1-2k making that setup. I do think I can get 500 RWHP out of Dennis's car. He'd need a single blade throttle body and a set ported heads and extrude honed intake. This will easily put him in the 500-525rwhp range and enough power to run 10's, or very close to it.

The newer heads flow really, really well. That's why I'd like to see them. The Novi 2000 is a better blower for a 4V, but more money than an S trim. Dennis is almost out of blower using that S trim. An upgrade to a T trim is like $1600 from what he said.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

Why would you stick with stock 96-98 cams over the 99 cams?

[MTCFORUM]

Why would you choose an air/air cooler? Jsut for ease of installation? Liquid to air is more effiecient than air to air. Even on hot days ice can be added into your coolant resivior to further lower the injected air temp.

[MTCFORUM]

From my understanding on a water/air type system once the water heats up it looses its cooling potential. As for an air/air it is also getting fresh air and with the cooling fan on it will drop the temp even more. I have a high speed cooling fan switch so when I want to play hard I flip it on.

Alan

[Modified by Alan, 1:17 AM 4/4/2002]<BR><BR>
[Modified by Alan, 1:17 AM 4/4/2002]

[MTCFORUM]

Well The liquid in the resivoir that is recirculated should not get that hot. The coolant is usually passed through radiator which cools it down considerable. I have heard of a lot of cars that the intake air was 40-50degrees warmer than the ambient air consistantly with an liquid to air cooler. I have never seen such claims with an air/air cooler.

[MTCFORUM]

It is not fair to compare the temp to ambient air after the compressor has raised the temp. Air that is near ambient temp after it has dicharged from the supercharger and passed through an intercooler is not that bad. The idea is not to cool air below ambient temp, it is to cool the air down from 200+ degrees after the supercharger.

[MTCFORUM]

Do the air/air coolers only cool the air before the supercharger compresses it?
I was talking about the air from a liquid to air charger injecting air 40 degrees higher than ambient in to the intake itself. This being after the comoressor.
This is how mine is setup. the aftercooler i guess you would call it, is between the intake and sc'r.

[MTCFORUM]

Read This. <A HREF="http://www.panhandleperformance.com/intercooler/intercooler2.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.panhandleperformance.com/intercooler/intercooler2.html</a>

Alan

[MTCFORUM]

that is not accurate information. They swayed those results because they use 100% water. Noone uses pure water. I want to see some results where they use a 50/50 mixture with possibly some water wetter added.

[MTCFORUM]

I have a air to air and it is more eficient than the water to air and less pain to fool with, my IAT is ambient or close to it. <IMG SRC="http://pstr-m01.ygpweb.aol.com/data/007/4F/78/8B/0D/jrENNTjNP9Ar-AI-dONM-w15TJkaOq480180.jpg" BORDER="0">

[MTCFORUM]

Forget air to air and air to water, shoot in a breeze of NOS and get that intake temp WAAAY DOWN! On my little turbo cars I used to drive, there were some pretty trick air/water set-ups that worked best from the research I did, but the air/air worked fine with the intercooler correctly positioned to provide adequate cooling, and installation/maintenance was much easier.

Save $5K and go N/A.

Kale

[MTCFORUM]

Dennis is correct, an air to air cooler, after the blower (that's the ONLY place you put a cooler) is more efficient than an air to water. Air to water is easier to package and plumb but not as efficient.

Now, putting N2O in after the blower is also an excellent intercooler.


jerry

[MTCFORUM]

Jerry how much for a complete motor ready to boost...

All I want to do is send a check and an address.. I am keeping my existing engine.

Thinking of the Kenne Bell unit to top it off ..

Trying to decide on total cost.. I am buying a new SC430 for a daily driver and plan to TOY with the Mark for real now...

I have a 98 LSC.. I can use my existing parts ei.. bolt ons etc.. also without an intercooler is the Kenne Bell a bad choice?

[MTCFORUM]

The result would have been even less satisfactory had they used a 50/50 mixture.
Water is a dipole molecule and is a more efficient transmitter of heat than ethylene
glycol. We'd all be using 100% water in our cooling systems were it not for the fact
that it boils at 212F degrees (when not under pressure). Down here in Phoenix I use
a 60/40 water/anti-freeze mixture to add a liitle extra efficiency to my cooling system
as well as water wetter to reduce surface tension.

[MTCFORUM]

I seem to remember seeing a setup where A/C lines were used to cool supercharged air. The guy said "Running the A/C pump takes an additional 8 HP, but the S/C adds 80 HP." Damn my memory..... <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emcrook.gif" BORDER="0">

[MTCFORUM]

well jerry you describe my motor all most to a T. i dont think it can be done for that cheap though and there is a lot of stuff you left out that you will need.

[MTCFORUM]

Here's the link to the refrigerated intercooler made by Coolflow.
<A HREF="http://www.coolflow.com/prod1.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://www.coolflow.com/prod1.htm</a>

[MTCFORUM]

HMMMMMM, 12 volt electric refer system chilling a liquid to air cooler and use the weight over the right rear for ballast. I wonder if cooling before and after the compressor will give more?
Bill. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0">

[MTCFORUM]

Why would you use 96-98 cams instead of the 99's?

[MTCFORUM]

What would this setup produce in N/A form?

I'm selling my 01 Vic, so I want to turn the 94 Monkey into a 300-350rwhp streetable car. This may be the route I want to take, it seems.

The 99+ tumble port heads...are those the SVO heads?

[MTCFORUM]

The '99 tumble port heads are production heads on any 1999 cobra. Now there is a new 4V head out, get those. They come on the Aviator and maruder, and the new Cobra.

If you were going to go N/A, then I'd build it to about 11.5:1 compression ratio. In a crownvic type body style, you'll need to spend the long green on a set of custom headers to make good power. But, with the higher compression ratio you'll make in the 325 RWHP range.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

What about water sprayed into the coils on the air to air? There are simple kits to do this.

[MTCFORUM]

OK, now you are talking about a air to water intercooler, you're just not recirculating the water.
Sounds like those guys flowing NO2 across the air to air and making a pass in a fog of NO2 gas.
The thing about air to air is that the air has to be moving. Whereas an air to water system has more heat capacity and can make up for the lack of air flow by banking cooling when it can. IE, when the cooling fans run.
Ultimately you need to size the heat exchangers appropriately. That is key. You can't pick a marginal system to deal with lots of heat.

[MTCFORUM]

actually there are so called "water injection" kits that aren't REAL water injection and all they do is spray a mist on intercooler (or whatever I guess). They they are cheap (and gay IMHO) and aren't actual water injection kits.

There's a few guys here in town using Nitrous to cool their air2air intercoolers.

Sebastian

[MTCFORUM]

Wouldn't you run the risk of breaking the welds from such a radical temp drop using NOS? I know the rally guys and autocrossers around here have had good luck with the water spray systems.

[MTCFORUM]

seabass, most of the water injection kits actually spray water into the boosted air, turbo guys been doing this for many years. You probably knew this. I did one in a Turbo Ghia Mustang in 1982. Messy and the pump kept failing.
The water evaporates and takes some of the heat with it. Guess whut, it evaporates into your motor. The other systems that spray the cooler with water, legal at the track?, are basically doing like I said air to water intercooler, just not recirculating. Where does the water go? How much do you have to carry to make it worth while?
Again, if the cooler (air to air) is undersized to begin with then you are hosed. You will need a constant flow of air from a seperate fan to make it work when you need it. On the air to water, you can spread the heat absorbed out across the volume of water you recirculate. For short bursts of really cold runs look at what the street outlaw guys do. Big volume cooler with icy water. Can absorb a lot of heat quickly and not have to work hard. Now to get them to be able to drive across town , you would need just as efficient heat exchanger, not easy. Its kinda like capacitance. Storing up heat energy to be release later more slowly. The air to air has to be able to cool itself just as fast as it heats itself, otherwise the temp will climb. Sure it will cool some as you cruise, but its heat efficiency may be limited during long runs. thats why autocrossers use the spray on the air to air, they really need a larger heat capacity afforded by the air to water.
There are tradeoffs for sure. Pumps and water plumbing Versus size and boost air plumbing. Cost, water systems are probably a little higher in cost.

I chose air to water since streetlight to street light I can get good cooling and not have to worry about recovery time with a decent volume of water. Otherwise, a <b>very large</b> air to air would be the way to go. Put a fan on it to help during the waits at the stoplight.