Comp Cams...not as trouble free as first thought?

[PhatDoggy]

Brandon (Calvert2812V ... link here (http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=364623)) at the Corral had a set installed on his untouched heads. He's got valvetrain noise. Now other people are coming out of the cracks alledging there are base circle issues with the Comps. If I read it correctly, Dennis Miles admitted there are variations and the cams may need to be shimmed. stanggt00 also had some interesting info to add, but I'm not so sure 0.001-0.02 deviation is really a big deal.
Just when I thought is was safe to get back in the water, this shit comes up. Anyone have any thought on what's going on?
Usually they work, and apparently sometimes they don't. Are the VT cams going to be susceptible to the same issues? I'd really like to get a set of cams, but I can't afford to buy yet another new engine due to someone's feeble attempts at making cams (referring to Erson with that comment).

[Starkie]

Good questions. Where is Scott when you need him?

Starkie

[BlackBeauty02]

Keep in mind that although most machining work is computer controlled, that such flaws can and do occur. It is impossible to create a perfect prduct 100% of the time. This is why warrenties exist. Also you have to look at installation of items as well. Is it possible to drop in a new base circle cam and have the installation be off? The answer is probably yes. There are too many variables at work to say deffinitvely that nobody can creat a cam that works for these cars. You really have to look at the whole package. Did springs get replaced? are the followers good. Odds and ends stuff like that. There are people on this board that have great setups using new base circle cams. Look at Ken, he's in the neighborhood of 320+ to the ground off a stock NA shortblock with his comp cams. That's numbers you see from boosted cars. Look at Troy, his setup is finally working out for him after the Erson regrinds he had. To say that because some people have problems so you are going to have problems just isn't right. That's the unfortunate part about moding cars, or anything for that matter. There is a chance that your setup may not work properly because of manufacturer defects, bad installs etc. I for one am still wanting to give a set of cams a try. If they don't work oh well, I'll go right back to the stockers. This is new ground being forged here with the mod motor base circle cams. It would be stupid to think everything would work out perfect.

[PhatDoggy]

BlackBeauty02... I realize tone is hard to communicate in text, so I want to first say that this post is not meant to flame you. :D

Did you read the thread at the Corral? Comp told him to shim them. When you pay for a new cam with a stock base circle, the last thing you should be doing is shimming the thing. That's one of the big attractions of using a billet core. I understand warranties exist because process control has not evolved to a perfect art, BUT when an out-of-spec unit is produced, the first move on the manfacturer's part should be to replace it. Offering up a place for the customer to spend more money trying to jury-rig the out-of-spec part shouldn't even cross his mind. To complicate the matter further, Ford apparently has some heads floating around out there with bearing journals that are at an extreme end of the spec. When you put the new cam in, it binds. Now your head needs to be line-bored. I had to do it. Ken had to do it. Who's next?

Understand that (as far as I know) I was the first person who's engine was sarificed in the name of Erson's cams, so I'm a little touchy on this subject. Troy's educational background made lemonade from lemons with his Ersons, but that is not justification for the product being crap. Obviously, just because some people are having problems with them doesn't mean everyone (including me) will, but when a manufacturer touts them as direct replacements...well, I expect them to be direct replacements. And I wouldn't exactly call these cams new ground. OHC engines have been around for a long time. Something else is at play here.

Consider this... you say you'll just go back to the stock cams if brand XYZ cams don't work. How would you like to have to buy a new engine to be able to do that? I'm not flaming you, but there are serious consequences for a cam not working right. Are you willing to put up cash to experiment? At one time I was, but >$6,000 later, I'm not. I want to be absolutely positive that they work before they go in.

The questions I asked probably can't be answered, but I brought them up for awareness.

[Flo Bee]

Are these guys physically and manually inspecting these things before they go out to people? Comp is a big company and little issues are bound to arise now and then. It's how they're handled that important, and we shouldn't jump to any conclusions before the "drama" is played out and all details are on the table. If Comp is found to be at fault, they'll have to prove to us that they're willling to step it up and take care of guys who got raked over -- in my opinion. If you advertise a cam to have specific specs, then don't meet them and the "average Joe" installs them and gets bad results, that's on you, as the manufacturer. Granted, most of the professional engine builders will check the tolerances, first.

I'm sure Scott will chime in about VT quality. I know SHM cams always were real close to specs when checked by independent sources (I think Tom being one of them), and I know Scott wouldn't be with VT if they weren't just as demanding or better.

I have a feeling VT will be the new standard here, shortly.

[Ares]

As a heads up on Comp Cams they are having issues with many cams for other motors not just the Ford Mod's. I know with Olds motors there is a problem with them wiping out the intake or exhaust(sometimes both) on the lobes of #6 cylinders. Same thing with some Chevy motors also.

So Comp Cams is starting to get a bad rap over these problems from what I am hearing.

[matt]

phatdoggy are these the heads that ford issued the TSB for, on engines built before 8-29-02?

[PhatDoggy]

Originally posted by matt
phatdoggy are these the heads that ford issued the TSB for, on engines built before 8-29-02?
I doubt it, since the heads work with the cams that are in them from the factory.

[white99gt]

I agree .In the cam making there will be issues.

There are varibles to every combo.

I firmly believe that comp will help out.
Another possiblity is that a certain grind may have this issue.

Its hard to help without getting flamed on the other boards.

I have contacted dennis and should know something on the issue tomorrow.
As far as stanggt00 i have details and will gladly post them. It seems to be on the machine shops fault with him.
I got the info from boths sides .

I posted to stanggt00 on another forum (thanks to ken b) he and his machine shop posted but neither would reply to my posts.


his posts:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4522

I do believe that it can be off while machining.I think a lot of it is the tolerances that ford gives.SOme of our stuff is so far out of wack its crazy.

Just my .02--

phatdoggy- yea there were peaple that got sarificed i guess by other peaple(cam makers),but every cam company has its issues.

I guess if anyone should have been a sarifice it should have been me .I had the first set available to the modular public.

Personally i think its a specific grind having a issue.(whether it be the specs or machine).Because at one point comp only had one machine that could do this billets.

I do agree if the cams are at fault the comp should stand behind it.

[AutomaticWeapon]

Originally posted by white99gt
Personally i think its a specific grind having a issue.(whether it be the specs or machine).Because at one point comp only had one machine that could do this billets. which grind?

-Mike

[Whitestang98]

Comp actually originally ground my cams backwards...Tim Barth's machine shop guys were tryin to get the cams in my heads for 2 days before they realized that the right cam was fitting in the left head and the left cam was fitting in the right head....since my cams are 234/238 duration cams they werent interchangeable...we had em sent back to comp and they replaced them and took care of all the shipping charges ect...can wait to see what they do on my car!!

[Starkie]

Originally posted by AutomaticWeapon
which grind?

-Mike

I knew you would be in here. :D

Starkie

[Scott@CMS]

Originally posted by Starkie
Where is Scott when you need him?

Starkie

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............stretch........... ...............:o

Sorry man.......long day of...........couch patato'ing. (Hey man, NASCAR takes up a good 3 hours :evil: )

Now, I don't know much about the comps, and my lawyer said I can't comment on "another company", so I'll try to do this as kwik and painless as possible.

Originally, when the blanks were manufactured for these engines, the base circles were smaller than stock. That's why the "original" billet cams still required shimming. Then the manufacturers off the billet sticks started making them in stock base circle sizes, thus not requiring shims any longer. I don't know if every company has the time/resources to check every UGL (Unground Lobe), so I would hazard to guess that possibly Comp got into a batch of old cores maybe? :dontknow: That would be my only guess. But again, I have NO idea what Comp does/uses, and I don't want to comment any further because I honestly don't know their methods. Hopefully this may shead some light. Sorry if I was useless like usual.......right Putnam!:D

Later gents.
:cheers:

[Aluminum]

Scott, I tried to get on your website with no luck. I wanted to get some more stuff from you, if possible. Is it down? Thanks, Russell...

[Scott@CMS]

Originally posted by Aluminum
Scott, I tried to get on your website with no luck. I wanted to get some more stuff from you, if possible. Is it down? Thanks, Russell...

Well crap! Maybe Tom (the shop manager) is updating it :dontknow: . Hopefully so, cuz we have a lot of updating to do. He's VERY busy at the shop, and only finds time on his days off to work on it. Shoot me a PM and I'll be more than happy to answer any questions ya got. I see you got your crank okay. Thanks again Russell.

Later.
Scotty
Team VT
:usa:

[white99gt]

Originally posted by Whitestang98
Comp actually originally ground my cams backwards...Tim Barth's machine shop guys were tryin to get the cams in my heads for 2 days before they realized that the right cam was fitting in the left head and the left cam was fitting in the right head....since my cams are 234/238 duration cams they werent interchangeable...we had em sent back to comp and they replaced them and took care of all the shipping charges ect...can wait to see what they do on my car!!

How can they have been ground backwards.Possibly the cams were mixed up when they were taken out of the box?because the boxes are marked specific left and right .


Mike-im not sure :dontknow: Just a thought i should have more info from comp tomorrow and see.Most of the guys, i know are running customs so maybe they pay extra attention to the customs.

My input is if there are shims needed a good machine shop can set the heads up to where the shims are not required (depending on the amount).

A lot of machine shops say they can set up modular heads but only a few handful really can do it properly.And only a select few even have the euipment to do any OHC work aka line bore the journels.


Im sorry calvert is having problems.But we all have issues of some sort in the new aftermarket of the 4.6.
But hopefully comp will step foward and help out.

And being that i have had a lot of help from comp .Im gonna do the best i can to help.

[Scott@CMS]

Comps are VERY reputable company. I agree with Bill, I don't think Comp will have a problem and step up to the plate. MHO.

[Cobra Killer]

Originally posted by white99gt
How can they have been ground backwards.Possibly the cams were mixed up when they were taken out of the box?because the boxes are marked specific left and right .





Cams were marked wrong.Right side cam was marked left side cam..Comp screwed up and fixed it promptly.We sent them back and had new ones ground.No biggie,just delayed delivery.Comp is a top notch company,but I will say this.I DID have to shim a set resently on a stock set of heads.First 2 sets we did bolted right up.This last set did not..Its NOT a big deal,just glad we checked before installing in the car.I dont trust anything ,we clearance all parts.
I use VT cams exclusively now.:)
That make ya happy Scott?



Tim

[Flo Bee]

Originally posted by Cobra Killer
\I dont trust anything ,we clearance all parts.

That's what I was talking about. Unfortunately, the "average Joe" might not understand the need to do this, as advertised as a direct bolt-in, and have big trouble.

In business, you learn to have backbone. My father's been in forever and I've learned from him. If you get a bad supply, it goes back on the guy who supplied it. I wouldn't settle for anything but the specified tolerances from a cam purchased to be at those specs. I'm sure Comp will cover this, in the end. Otherwise, it'll probably prove to be their demise.

[Cobra Killer]

I doubt it will hurt Comp..They are a very good company..They will get the problem resolved just like any other good company that has a problem arise.

I know of a car that was refused on the trailer that was tuned by a canadian company.Car drove like chit.Actually the owner described it as a joke.Car flat sucked..My point,everyone has probelms..EVERYONE.....No company is perfect...Difference is,who stands behind what they do.
I'm sure comp will resolve it.

Tim

[Flo Bee]

Originally posted by Cobra Killer
I doubt it will hurt Comp..They are a very good company..They will get the problem resolved just like any other good company that has a problem arise.

I know of a car that was refused on the trailer that was tuned by a canadian company.Car drove like chit.Actually the owner described it as a joke.Car flat sucked..My point,everyone has probelms..EVERYONE.....No company is perfect...Difference is,who stands behind what they do.
I'm sure comp will resolve it.

Tim

Already had my issues with a Canadian company or two. :rolleyes:

I agree. I'd just like to see them handle this right. I think the early flames are bad, since internet gossip is ridiculous. However, this is a powerful selling tool, and I honestly do think that if people see a company use poor support skills, it will hurt credibility, some. In my case, all issues I've ever had with companies have been resolved at my request, and I am able to carry on without a loss.

Obviously, if I was told to just shim a cam on a car after it didn't meet advertised specs, I'd have to tell that company that was not an option. Call it what you want, but I call it fraud and wouldn't stand for it. That kind of treatment might work on some guys, but not me.

I'm probably wasting my time expressing this, considering I feel that Comp is reputable enough to compensate and fix their problems and also considering I'm not running their cams. I just know if my car had issues like that, I'd be damned if they were going to pass it off on me as acceptable. It's simply not what was advertised.

[TroyV]

Phat: My cams set up like they were exactly stock. The lash is perfect. My guess is that there might be some older ones lying around, but I would also guess that they are probably exhausted of those. I think if you were to order one of the new grinds that Ken is selling, you'd get the right thing.

...and I hate lemonade.

[KenB]

Originally posted by TroyV
Phat: My cams set up like they were exactly stock. The lash is perfect. My guess is that there might be some older ones lying around, but I would also guess that they are probably exhausted of those. I think if you were to order one of the new grinds that Ken is selling, you'd get the right thing.

...and I hate lemonade.

I believe Comp will do whatever it takes to resolve this. FWIW, Brandon did order these from me just a week or so ago.

[TroyV]

I stand corrected. Sorry.

[Brandon Alsept]

Ok this is kinda out of line in alot of ways. Comp Cams steps up make some new parts for our cars :headbang: Ok now how many other products do you look back at that had problems here and there during there first run sets. Companies can only test so many variables when building a product. That is why most places have warrenties because they thereself do not know what could may happen with there product in a certain environment. With the cams you have to look at all the possiable variables that could go into them. Such as the factory Valve job and how deep it goes, the installed height of the valves, is the lifter bore the same on everyone, is the rockers all the same, then you throw the variable that comp goes by there are a ton of variables that can be mixed in here. Now is it posiable that these guys that are coming up with problems maybe got the pure out loose specs on there heads? Sure it is posiable, now hopefully they get all there problems worked out so they have a working set of cams, as stated in this thread by Tim you should double check everything installed on your car, most people do this for the fact they know that tolerances exist and do show there ugly head from time to time.

I know my car was fine with the cams I got they where #2 off the line and Ken's where #3 ours dropped right in and where fine, we checked them though and everything was perfect on them no noise or anything and they proved to make more power than any other cams out there, both of our cars made 315 rwhp+. But as I stated we checked our stuff when we installed it.

Now this thread has be good and civil so far so lets keep it that way.

Brandon

[PhatDoggy]

Brandon...no disrespect meant to Comp. It's just a discussion - not a trial by fire. I would expect Comp, as big as they are, to step up and replace out-of-spec cams without question. If they do this without causing grief, then all is good.

[2Vbird]

I pretty much agree with ALLMTR2V.

I got rid of some regrinds and waited for some billet cams to come out while Jason Steen was porting my heads. He orders me a set of Comp 102200 (.500/.500 230/236 act. duration) and when he got them he called me and told me the base circle was smaller than the PI base circle. He called Comp, they told him to shim and that's fine. I trust Jason.

My heads are now at MV Performance and Tim will give them a look over again due to the problems Brandon is having. I talked with Dennis Miles (sp?) this morning and he pretty much feels that I might not even have to use shims, that even with the smaller base circle they should be fine. I kind of have a hard time with that seeing the problems others have had.

So, I will be heading to MV tomorrow to get the measurements of my cams, and compare them to what Dennis got for some that are already out there running. Personally, with my heads P&P by Jason and Tim assembling the motor and installing it, I trust them to look everything over and get it right. I did ask Dennis what comp was going to do at this point, and he gave me NO CLEAR ANSWER as to what would be done for cam owners.

time will tell...:dontknow:

[white99gt]

Well i can tell you if they are set up correctly you will have no issues.

I contacted dennis today .My custom grinds have a SMALLER base circle than calverts has.He compaired mine to calverts(grind specs).
But ,I know thats not a answer but installing cams with out measuring ,its a crap shoot.

I quote:
After comparing the data sheets of Brandon's and yours, your base circle radius is smaller than his. So, I don't think we are looking at right thing as the problem.But im helping as much as possible to get it resolved.



--bill

[PhatDoggy]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...
Could it be the valvetrain specs from Ford are too loose? This is getting really goofy, since as far as I know, Brandon's heads are untouched other than springs and cams.

[white99gt]

Originally posted by PhatDoggy
Hmmmmmmmmmm...
Could it be the valvetrain specs from Ford are too loose? This is getting really goofy, since as far as I know, Brandon's heads are untouched other than springs and cams.

Its possible.Ford has been know to have head issues.Hell look at the tsb that recently came out on the newer gts for a TICK noise(fix is a new head).
And the 03 cobras have had a issue with the heads to(fix a new head).

But im not there so its hard to say.:dontknow: what it could be.

[vetkilr]

Ill be watching too see how this plays out!
Cams are in my plans pretty soon,but Ill wait a bit now to be safe!

[vetkilr]

Ken how a bout a Founding member tag please!!!!

[vetkilr]

dp

[The Wizard]

any word on this? i was going to start a new thread, but i figured the search nazi's would get on my case. :p i have a friend that needs to know if his cams will be ok to install, and if they are out of spec what comp is doing about them??

[metroplex]

http://www.redpulsar.us/~coldfusion/CVN/102100M.jpg

I bought a pair of XE262H 102100 cams for my NPI 4.6 V8

Those are the measurements, and I've already returned a pair due to manufacturer's damage to 1 lobe (it was dented, raising the lobe surface a few microns).

The old cams were UF0xxx and UF9xxx - same as these and the base circles differ by the same amount.

I am posting this info in hopes that others will chime in w/ their take on things - does the RH cam have a smaller radial base circle than the LH cam even on the NPI and PI cams?

If not - then CompCams seriously needs to recalibrate their machines because the UF0xxx cams have smaller radial base circles than the UF9xxx cams.

I can't say for sure ALL their cams are like this - but two UF0xxx and two UF9xxx cams w/ very similar specs seems to raise a few questions.

[Kurgan]

No problems with my Comp Cams yet. I hope that when I get my other set of PI heads ported and polished and transfer these cams into those heads that I don't have any problems either. I'll be sure to check clearances for sure.

[Big Scott]

I'd just like to add that my builder (Renagade Racing) noticed one of my new '99 PI heads needed to be line bored when he was doing the build up.

-Scott

[TroyV]

I've got close to 12k on my comps... No issues.

[Calvert2812V]

Wow, just found this thread! :D

Anyways, the deal was that I had hellacious valvetrain clatter when the Comp cams went in with Comp springs. The installation of them was not the issue. Although I did not install them, I had an extremely reputable Ford master technician install them. He install the Crane regrinds, lash caps, and ModMax springs before with zero problems.

Basically, what wasn't done, was that he didn't check the preload on the lifters. I believe correct preload is supposed to be 80-100 thousandths of an inch, if my memory serves me correctly. So, thats where the valvetrain clatter came from. The car ran great, it was just loud as fuck.

So, the next step from here, is that the heads are most likely going to Jim O'Neill at Renegade Racing. He will fully port and polish them with all the goodies, and reinstall my cams and springs. I'm going to make for sure that he double checks the preload on the lifters. If it appears that they need to be shimmed, then I'll have him talk to Dennis Miles at Comp Cams first, to discuss the situation. I don't want to have to have billet cams advertised as a "drop-in," to be shimmed, plain and simple. When Jim gets my heads and gets them finished, I'll post his findings then.

Moral of the story... check the preload of you lifters before you put everything back together. If you get 80-100 thousandths of an inch, then you are set. If not, suspect that the base circle is smaller than it should be, but measure it first just to be sure.

[metroplex]

Brandon: I measured the base circle before I did anything. I will check the preload after the install.

I'm almost sure your cams have smaller than spec base circles. The NPI CC camshafts ARE advertised as drop ins w/o shimming requirements. I'm not sure about the PI CC Camshafts or custom grinds but the NPI CC Camshafts are supposed to replace stock cams.

[jimfitzgerald]

Just curious. Are the cams people are having problems with "off-the-shelf" cams? As far as I know, Higgins had no problems with my cams and I made 87 rwhp. They were custom grinds. I think Bill (white99gt) was happy with his custom grinds.

[metroplex]

Yes the inconsistent base circle spec was found on a pair of off-the-shelf 102100s

Dennis did not recommend a custom grind for my app, but there's no excuse for a custom grind to be ground properly leaving the OTC cams w/ smaller than normal specs.

[metroplex]

BTW I thought I'd find it in my FSM, but how do you check the lifter preload?

[The Wizard]

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/106-03/HTML/66-67.html

the bottom note for the PI cams says: "Note: Can also be used in Pre 99 (P.I.) Heads with retainer to guide clearance modifications and Comp Cams Valve Springs"

sounds to me like the PI cams can be used on the Non-PI heads with proper shimming. doesn't say anything about having to shim a brand new cam that is supposedly made for your particular heads. hmmm....

[Calvert2812V]

metroplex... According to Dennis Miles, after cross referencing the serial #'s of my cams, my cams are within spec, as far as the base circle goes.

jimfitzgerald... My cams are custom grinds.

[metroplex]

I think the main thing with the CC PI cams is that the valve lift is very aggressive (.550") vs. the max exh lift for stock PI cams (.535") vs. the lift for stock NPI cams (.47x") and the new springs are mandatory.

Not sure about shimming though - if Ford PI cams can be swapped over w/o the need for shimming, I don't see why CC can't do this either.

[kdanner]

Originally posted by metroplex
I think the main thing with the CC PI cams is that the valve lift is very aggressive (.550") vs. the max exh lift for stock PI cams (.535") vs. the lift for stock NPI cams (.47x") and the new springs are mandatory.


I measured the cam lift of 4 different PI cams, all 4 measured .297 on the exhaust side. The Comps I have here measured .300. Whether the ratio is 1.8, 1.81, 1.825, whatever, take your pick, it still ends up being less than .006 more lift than the stock cams.

[white99gt]

well my this is my input.I have the first off the machine set of comp cams for the modular motors.

Mine are a custom set,and i have the smallest base circle out there of ANY of the comps.Guess being the first has its draw backs.

But it has been proven that not only comps have ticking issues.It all depends on the tolerances in the valve train.

if the cams are setup at the same time as the heads ,and the machine shop sets them up correctly .There will be ZERO noise and ZERO issues.

I cant speak for a "drop"cam.I never have installed ANY part without checking everything.


I can say my cams were installed when the motor was built.I have over 10K on the motor and is as quiet as stock.

[metroplex]

how do you "set" up everything? I can't find any procedures for anything other than dropping in new cams.

kdanner: 0.297 * 1.81 = 0.537" (stock PI exh lift is spec'd at .535"), and you said you measured .300" for the CC PI cam exh lift, that would be .543" lift. New valve springs are highly recommended for their PI cams.

[white99gt]

Originally posted by metroplex
how do you "set" up everything? I can't find any procedures for anything other than dropping in new cams.

kdanner: 0.297 * 1.81 = 0.537" (stock PI exh lift is spec'd at .535"), and you said you measured .300" for the CC PI cam exh lift, that would be .543" lift. New valve springs are highly recommended for their PI cams.

Setup is done when the heads are assemblied.Machine shops can adjust valve height to get everything in specs.Factory preload is .120 and anything below .80 can cause noise .

here is how to check preload properly:
You need to set it up with the cam at the base circle or bottom of the lobe.
Once the cam touches without putting any pressure on the follower, zero the dial
indicator, then tighten the cam down all the way. Once it is tight, see how much
movement the dial indicator shows. This will be your preload.

[metroplex]

Bill: Are you taking the dial indicator readings on the follower? (any specific part of the follower?)

By tightening the cam, do you mean just rotating the cam until the lobe pushes the valve spring down?

[D97GT]

Originally posted by metroplex
Bill: Are you taking the dial indicator readings on the follower? (any specific part of the follower?)

By tightening the cam, do you mean just rotating the cam until the lobe pushes the valve spring down?


Checking it the way they're talking about you want to measure it on the follower directly over the adjuster. If you don't have a dial indicator you could use a caliper to measure it. You'll need something to reference off of to do it with the caliper though.

Here is a different way to check the preload in this thread! They're talking about the DOHC setup but its supposed to be the same preload specs as the 2V.


http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=294367

[metroplex]

I think I know what's involved:

They basically want to use a feeler gauge inserted between the roller follower roller and the cam lobe w/ the lash adjuster compressed using a screwdriver.

We want something in between .018 and .033

.120 and .080 seem to be a lot larger than .018-0.033...

Or is the .018-.033 spec for DOHC only?

[kdanner]

Originally posted by metroplex
how do you "set" up everything? I can't find any procedures for anything other than dropping in new cams.

kdanner: 0.297 * 1.81 = 0.537" (stock PI exh lift is spec'd at .535"), and you said you measured .300" for the CC PI cam exh lift, that would be .543" lift. New valve springs are highly recommended for their PI cams.


That's what I already said, less than .006 more lift than the stock cam.

[white99gt]

Originally posted by metroplex
Bill: Are you taking the dial indicator readings on the follower? (any specific part of the follower?)

By tightening the cam, do you mean just rotating the cam until the lobe pushes the valve spring down?

Im not sure off hand ,my setup notes are on my main computer files at home.(im out of town till friday night and using my laptop).

Plus trying to upload the stuff i do have is a PITA with 56gay:curses: (what i use out of town)

[D97GT]

Originally posted by metroplex
I think I know what's involved:

They basically want to use a feeler gauge inserted between the roller follower roller and the cam lobe w/ the lash adjuster compressed using a screwdriver.

We want something in between .018 and .033

.120 and .080 seem to be a lot larger than .018-0.033...

Or is the .018-.033 spec for DOHC only?

No, these are 2 different ways of measuring the preload. One involves inserting a feeler gauge between the "base circle" of the cam and the roller on the follower with the adjuster completely collapsed. With that method you should see between .018"-.033" clearance.
The 2nd method is actually measuring how far the adjuster is compressed by the base circle of the cam when the cam is torqued down. Both methods should be giving the same end results. In other words .018"-.033" clearance between the roller on the follower and cam base circle should end up equalling .080"-.120" compression at the adjuster.

[metroplex]

Thanks!

[96 GoldBird]

I can only post my own experience and what information I was given.

I had a set of Compcams 102200's custom ground in October (shipped 10/16). They were swapped into fully massaged Renegade NPI heads with Compcams springs, SS valves, etc. that were run for about 2 months, replacing r OEM PI cams.

At that time there was alot of talk about Compcams QC so I talked extesively to Renegade (who uses Compcams on some of his heads) and Dennis Miles.

Renegade told me that he had base circle issues with one set early on, but that the three sets he had installed most recently at that time were fine. He told me that he had heard reports of the other problems, but because of the many factors in installing cams (valve stem height, etc) he did not automatically accept that it was the cams that were at fault as was being reported. Since he did not install those so-called problem cams or see them installed he could not rule out human error. He suggested that I when I put my cams in, I measure the Compcams against the PI's that were coming out and check lash and preload after install.

Dennis at Compcams explained that they did have some problems early, but they had started grinding our cams only with the CNC to eliminate human error, apparently some had been hand ground. He also explained that every cam goes into this very expensive, exotic laser measuring computer that checks the cams and records the specs of each cam, which has its own serial number, and any cam that is not within their accepted tolerances was not shipped.

I ordered the cams and was told when to expect them. When they did not arrive when expected, I called Compcams and was told that one of my cams did not meet specs and they had to grind another one from scratch, so it took an extra day, which confirmed to my that they actually did check their product.

When the cams were installed the journals and base circles were checked against the PI cams that came out. I don't have the numbers available anymore, but I remember that the Compcams were no more than .003 different than than the OEMs and most of the measurements were right on or less than .003 off, and where the specs differed, the Compcams were larger, not smaller. I had been told that .003 would be fine, so the cams were installed.

I have had no problems with them. The car has been raced and drives on the street, and while there were some idle and driveability issues due to the LSA I chose, SCT tuned those issues out. The cams are not noisey in the least. With very conservative tune I gained a bit more than 25 hp at the wheels with the Comp cams over the PI's with no other mods.

That is just my personal experience.

I am presently having a Renegade short block built and shipping my engine to Renegade to 'scavenge' the heads, chains, oil pump, etc from so that he can send back a completed Renegade long block. My point is that Renegade will soon have my heads with the Compcams in them in his hands after they have been run for about 2000 mi. I am sure he will double check the cams and the install before he bolts them to his engine. I will report back whether or not he discovers any issues with the cams.

[metroplex]

a day to grind them on a CNC??? geez

It shouldn't take anywhere that long to grind them and check them.

They did ship out .943" base circle cams - so I guess that's within spec for them.

[96 GoldBird]

Originally posted by metroplex a day to grind them on a CNC??? geez

It shouldn't take anywhere that long to grind them and check them.

I'm not sure I get your point. They discovered it was out of specs one day and shipped the proper cam the next. Now, for instance if they checked it at say 3:30 pm the first day, just before they packed it up to ship, I doubt they would have stayed overtime to grind the new cam, check it and package it up, nor would they probably have kept UPS standing around waiting while they did. Of course that's assuming they had no other cams in the machine at the time, or would have stopped production on whatever cam was in there to cut mine. I probably did not have to go to the end of the line, but I'm sure I had to wait my turn..... Geez

Someone earlier on asked and others have suggested that they do not check their product. My point was that in my experience they do.

In term of their specs and their tolerances, they may not be as strict as Ford's or other cam manufacturers, I don't know, but again, my experience was that whatever their tolerances are they were sufficient to cause me no problems.

If you want to knock Compcams based on your own personal experience and/or opinions, you go right ahead.

My personal experience with them was entirely positive, and no rhetorical questions or snide remarks from others will change that impression.

Now, if when Renegade checks them, he finds them to be problematic, that will certainly change my impression. But that remains to be seen.

[metroplex]

Do you have the actual specs for the cams? I'd like to see them in order to see how close they are to original NPI/PI spec for myself.

[96 GoldBird]

Originally posted by metroplex Do you have the actual specs for the cams? I'd like to see them in order to see how close they are to original NPI/PI spec for myself.

Sorry man, I don't. I would like to do that myself and if I did I would post them, probably on your other thread, which I have been following with much interest. Trust me, if there are problems with Compcams, I do not want them attached to my new $4000 short block.

I did not do the install myself. It was done by a top-notch Ford tech at the local Ford dealer who has done a bunch of other mods as well as general maintanence work for me over a period of years. I asked him to check the measurements of new cams against the old ones and call me before he put them in. Unfortunately for our purposes here, at the time I was not doing a research project, so the only numbers I was concerned about were the DIFFERENCES between the two cams, not the ACTUAL numbers. I had been told (by people other than Compcams) anything .003 or less would be fine. Theory being is that if the cams coming out worked, the cams going in would if they were within that tolerance. So .003 or less was the number I was listening for and the number I heard, so in they went. He compared the Comps to the actual cams that came out, not to any listed or posted numbers for OEM cams in general. I realize that was chancey, 'cause the PI cams could have been at the outer limits of the tolerances, but it worked out ok for me.

I still have the PI's so I could measuren them, but when Renegade double checks the Comps, I doubt he will remove and re-install them unless he has to. He will probably check the preload and lash values and if they are good, he will leave them alone, 'cause ultimatley that, and valve to piston clearance, is what really matters to him at this point. If he has to take them out, perhaps he will measure them, perhaps not, I'm not anxious to frivolously add the to cost of my engine build, and/or slow the process down, for the purposes of posting numbers here.

I can ask Dennis to provide with the numbers they say the cams are. That's probably the best I can do.

I agree with you and others who have indicated that Compcams should tighten up their tolerances, both between their cams and the OEMs, and among their own cams. If other manufacturers can keep the differences within .0015 and below between the lobes of each cam and from cam to cam, there is no GOOD reason why Compcams should accept twice that or more as sufficient.

[Calvert2812V]

This has been posted on the Corral as well. I just wanted the people that were interested to have some sort of an update. Well, I now have a little bit more info into the on-going Comp cam saga. The good news, is that it appears that it was the cam timing on the passenger side head was off, so hopefully this will clear the cams of fault, although nothing has been proven yet. I just find that weird, because that is the second set of cams my buddy has done for me, and the first time was great. Anyways, here's a reply to me from my head porter...


I took apart the intake and found something odd... Metallic debris and aluminum debris........ I then tore further into the heads and found several things that contributed to your issues.... It looks like the right cylinder head cam timing was set incorrectly.. I cleaned the chambers and there is definitely a witness mark of the valve hitting the piston on each of the
intake valves on the right (passenger side) head. The damage in the #1 chamber was caused by a broken intake valve guide that proceeded to disintegrate as you drove it around... The head needs to be welded to repair this... The intake guide on #2 was broken as well and had started to break apart but was no where near as far along as #1 guide was. Your shortblock is pretty suspect at this point seeing the amount of debris that went through #1 cylinder and was lodged up in the intake. The valvetrain set-up is hard to tell based on broken guides and bent valves but something definitely wasn't right.... Was the noise strictly from the right side or both heads? Once I go through the left cylinder head I'll have the complete story but for now all I've gotten through is the intake and the right head.

Anyways thats all I know right now. Like I had said before, the passenger side front piston had damage to the ridge, and apparently, that is from a broken intake valve guide. With that being said, after the oil pan is off, how hard is it to change out the passenger side front piston in our cars??? Thanks guys. Just figured I'd throw out a bit of info. Later...

[TARZAN]

Things like this are the main reason, I'm seldon one of the first on the bandwagon :)


-Will

[metroplex]

How was the timing on the passenger head off?

[96 GoldBird]

Was the cam timing off because of the cam grind, or because it was not indexed properly when installed???

[metroplex]

I'm not quite sure how you could index it wrong...

All you have to do when "timing" the engine is line up the 2 marks on the chain to the mark on the cam sprocket and the mark on the crank sprocket. What I did was have someone rotate the cam to line up with the pulley :D thanks to the 15/16" hex in the shaft of the camshaft.

I then rotated the crankshaft 57 times to verify that the marks did not jump (I had someone split it with me so I wouldn't collapse from exhaustion).

But in Brandon's case... I'm not sure :confused: unless the person that installed it didn't line up the marks properly?

['01 Steed]

Originally posted by Calvert2812V
...With that being said, after the oil pan is off, how hard is it to change out the passenger side front piston in our cars??? Thanks guys. Just figured I'd throw out a bit of info. Later...

Damn Brandon, that SUCKS!!
You'd better take a look at your rod bearings for those cylinders with piston damage from the valves. Better safe than sorry.

[Calvert2812V]

I can't really answer any of the cam timing issues. All I know, is that this was the 2nd set of cams my buddy did for me. The first set was all fine and dandy. This set is where the problems came in. I really don't question the installation, as he is a Ford master tech, and does all of my work for me. I'm hoping it was the cam itself that stuck me in the ass. As far the the rod bearings go, I'll see if they can't be checked out when the oil pan comes off. Don't you just LOVE this shit???!!! :cheers:

[metroplex]

:(

Its just a matter of personal preference but I always try to do the installs myself if I want it done right.

That way if I screw it up, I have only myself to blame.

[Calvert2812V]

Thats a very good point, but when you aren't mechanically inclined, you have little choice. :D

As far as my problems, the only other thing that I can think of, is that the cams had 5 degrees of advance ground into them. Would this make a difference, as far as how you time the cams, via the sprockets???

[metroplex]

As far as my problems, the only other thing that I can think of, is that the cams had 5 degrees of advance ground into them. Would this make a difference, as far as how you time the cams, via the sprockets???

Is that an 5 degrees of advance when compared to stock cams?

If so - and your timing is off by a tooth or two, that COULD spell trouble.

Do you know if your friend marked the chains / sprockets or did he time the engine another way? If the marks are dead-on ... then it'd be the cams.

I bought "off-the-shelf" XE262s... and the passenger side cam was off by 0.003" for the radial base circle (Serial # was UF04xx). If your custom ground cams had a similar serial #, I suspect the machinist/operator had trouble setting up the machine properly. It could very well be the cams now that you mention its just the passenger side (RH).

My LH cams had a serial # of UF9xxx and both times the radial base circles were dead-on (+/- 0.001") from stock spec. The reason I say "cams" is because I had a problem with one lobe on the first set and exchanged for another set.

Both sets measured about the same for everything (lobe lift, base circle, etc...) so I suspected only two different machines and/or operators were involved.

I'm not sure if they'd use a different machine for custom ground cams.

[hognutz]

I will throw in my .02 on comp cams. I have ran them before in other cars. I helped my dad put a 502 in his truck. he actually ran the cams out to make sure they were in spec. He went through two before he got one that mesured within "thier" spec. I have not run them since. now I don't know that these cams were so out of spec that it would have cause huge problems or catastrophic failer . I just know I though to myself what are the odds of getting back to back cams out of spec if they had "great" quality control. I mean when somthings says for example +/-.005" and you get two in a row that are +/-.007" it gives me pause.

[metroplex]

I got two in a row that were +/- 0.007" while the other cam (two in a row) was within +/- 0.002"

It just so happened that the 0.007 cam was a RH cam (passenger side) - that's why I'm asking Brandon to check the serial # on the passenger cam (he can check the box or registration sheet).

[Calvert2812V]

Well, both of my cams have a serial # of Z ####. So, its really hard to say. I'm waiting for a response from my head porter to see what all goes into timing a 5-degree advanced cam. According to Randy Stinchcomb, I should either change cams, or get adjustable cam sprockets. I guess we'll wait and see...

[Flo Bee]

Originally posted by Calvert2812V
According to Randy Stinchcomb, I should either change cams, or get adjustable cam sprockets. I guess we'll wait and see...

Or maybe both...

[Calvert2812V]

Originally posted by Flo Bee
Or maybe both...

Thats true, but I really don't have the money for $500+ cams right now, along with however much the adjustable cam sprockets run. Hell, I don't even know where to get the sprockets from. Plus, that'll give me a set of regrinds to sell, and a set of Comps. After everyone has heard about MY Comps, do you really think anyone would want them, even though they have less than 100 miles on them??? I doubt it...

[Flo Bee]

The first line I know of on the adjustable cam gears is through Fox Lake. I'm not sure if they're in production yet, but they're listed on their site.

VT is working on some, but I'm not sure. They could be the same units that Fox Lake is putting out.

[96 GoldBird]

Originally posted by Calvert2812V
The good news, is that it appears that it was the cam timing on the passenger side head was off, so hopefully this will clear the cams of fault, although nothing has been proven yet.

Is this still the case, or has it been determined for sure that it was the Comp Cams??? I ask that because your next post:

Originally posted by Calvert2812V
I can't really answer any of the cam timing issues. I'm hoping it was the cam itself that stuck me in the ass.
"hopes" it is the cam itself, seeming to indicate that it is yet undetermined.

But your next post:

Originally posted by Calvert2812V
After everyone has heard about MY Comps, do you really think anyone would want them, even though they have less than 100 miles on them??? I doubt it...
gives the impression that you are sure the Comp Cams are definatly at fault. Did I miss the post where the cause was attributed to the Comps????

I had no problems with my Comps, but because of what I had heard, I had my installer mic the journals and base circles and compare them to the PI's that came out. They were pretty much right on, or within .003 of the PI's. I would recommend doing that to anyone else before installing the cams. I'm not sure if there is a way to see if the 5 degree advance was properly ground, but Dennis Miles at Comp cams told me that they take a post grind computer read on the specs of every cam they ship and have the specs on file. You can call him, give him the serial numbers and he'll pull the file and check the specs. You can probably arrange to send the questionable cam back to him and have it rechecked.

No, I am not on Compcams payroll, nor am I saying that there haven't been some problems with their product. Dennis admitted to me that there were, but said they had taken steps to eliminate them, and now re-checked the specs on every cam before they ship. I know that my cams were delayed because one of them was out of specs and they had to grind a new cam. My head porter told me that the 3 most recent sets of Comps he installed before I got mine were fine, and I don't know that he has had any problems since then, I can ask him. I also know that some of the problems initially attributed to Compcams were found to be due to other issues.

Cams can be misindexed. No mechanic I ever met is immune from mistakes, miscalculations, occasional carelessness, etc.

I just would hate to see Compcams, or any other vendor, get blasted until it is positively determined that it is their product that caused the breakdown. If it already has been determined that it was the cams, I missed that post, and apologize in advance to you and your mechanic.

[metroplex]

You can call him, give him the serial numbers and he'll pull the file and check the specs. You can probably arrange to send the questionable cam back to him and have it rechecked.

Unless you get in touch with Daryl at CompCams... he'll go, "(huff of air) nope nope. I can't find your serial # listed here... (huff of air)"

I measured all of my camshafts:

http://www.redpulsar.us/~coldfusion/film12/CamComparo.jpg

[metroplex]

As you can see... whoever was making the LH cam was almost dead-on.... :cheers: goes to the guy in charge of that cam!

:mad: goes to the guy making the RH cam.

[96 GoldBird]

Originally posted by metroplex
As you can see... whoever was making the LH cam was almost dead-on.... :cheers: goes to the guy in charge of that cam!

:mad: goes to the guy making the RH cam.

Yeah, I agree.. I had seen your specs awhile ago when you posted them on your other thread. Bummer. I always talk to Dennis, if he's around. I got jacked around by someone else when I was checking on the ship date for my cams, when they didn't show as scheduled. The guy told me they went out, when in fact they flunked one of the cams (not sure which one) and they had to grind a new one, so they went out a day later. Dennis told me the real story the next day when I called to confirm again.

By the way, I'm going SC, so my N/A Comp cams are coming out. My head porter is gonna check the specs, and so is they guy I sold them too, I'm sure. So in a few weeks there may be another set of specs to post. My installer did not measure every cam, he also didn't write the actual numbers down, just compared them on the spot to the PI's. We will probably have those numbers though... They may well be off, but the cams worked great.. no slap, no binding... and no piston to valve contact (Thank you God).

I knew your's were off, but

I was curious about Brandon's situation. Whether they had finally determined that the cams were bum.

[Calvert2812V]

96 GoldBird... Sorry for the confusion. No, we haven't yet determined if it was a faulty cam, or the installation just yet. I head porter said it appears that the cam timing was off. But, he is 400 miles from the car. So, right now, it could be either one. To my knowledge, he hasn't measured the cams or anything like that just yet, but I'll again remind him to do so, since I had issues. I'll post his findings when I am in the know.