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Cobrala
10-05-2003, 03:02 PM
I didn't want my questions to go unanswered because of being in the wrong thread, so I will start a new thread with them in it, as I feel they are important valid questions, concerns, and thoughts. Here are the copy/paste, from the previous thread, of my posts:

Originally posted by KenB
SCT Racer Package - $449

Allows shifting of timing and fuel curves
Adjust Speed limiters
Adjust Rev Limiters
Adjust axle ratio to correct speedometer after gear change
Adjust for tire diameter changes
Increse increase line pressure for greatly improved shifting (autos)

An example would be the fuel table. With the Racer version you will be able to shift the whole curve but not be able to tweak individual values like in the Pro Racer version.

The standard $449 Racer version sounds basically similar to a $419 DiabloSport Predator, but with your software/hardware you will need to have a pc to make changes to the above mentioned end user adjustments, correct?. I'm not trying to be indifferent here at all, but I do not see where the Racer version is really anymore beneficial than the Predator, or even the current Microtuner, for that matter, and again, especially versus the Predator, since your new setup will not initially offer any datalogging, nor even any simple diagnostics abilities. What happens when that is finally offered, the current customers have to spend more $ just to get your version of the Microtuner updated, or will they be out of luck just how all the current Superchips Microtuner owners are, i.e. no current upgrade trade-in value (I would hope that you're aware that DiabloSport offers free upgrades to their customers!)? Read here:

Information taken from another thread in this forum:

A forum member asks:

Originally posted by Andrew WOT
2) That flasher, which I understand is a modified version of Microtuner, will it be able to read diagnostic codes and doing simple adjustment to the tune like changing rev limiter or shifting points without laptop like original microtuner does.

You respond with:

Originally posted by SCT Guy
I answered this in another thread, but the answers are...

Number 2, no it won't. We are working on a seperate tool to do this and datalog. It's coming.

It sounds like there is just a bit more money to invest even after the initial $449 price of the standard Racer version. That already sounds as if it is getting kindof steep :( Comparing your Pro Racer version to say LS1Edit for the GM owners, LS1Edit has a $550 price to be able to do full adjustment to the pcm like your Pro Racer version of $795, plus the LS1Edit interface cable will allow up to 3 more additional VIN # inputs for $150 each, in case the customer gets another vehicle, or decides to share the software/hardware with a friend. And with that being said, you state your system will VIN lock ("marry") to the vehicle, but is this just for the Pro Racer version, or both that and the cheaper Racer version? The Ford Predator allows the owner to use it on another applicable vehicle, so long as they restore the programming back to the original backup on the currently tuned vehicle with it.

Please expound as able, as I'm trying to justify spending $30 more for something that offers 1/2 the overall features, to be fair, of what a product like the Predator offers right away (and, again, even the current Superchips Microtuner), plus it not offering the convenience of not having to tote around a laptop or run inside to your desktop pc to make necessary changes to the limited end user adjustments.

Thank you for your important time.

Post #2:

Originally posted by jmlay
Cobrala,

It was my understanding that the Predator would marry to the vin and that was it!!! No way to change it. I asked a dealer that exact question and was told now it will not and never will allow you to program another, even if the origional program is returned to the first.

Mike,

That's not true on the DiabloSport Ford Predators, as it is on the GM Predators. I know this for a fact, as not only does it say it right in the manual, but if you have a Ford Predator and try it, you will see exactly that it does unmarry from the VIN (I know, I have one, tried it, and successfully used it on 2 other friends' Cobras). The Predator also works for all 3 of the calibration codes on the Cobra (QUD2, YHD0, YHD1), and will work with any newer ones that may be released by Ford, once a revision update is released for it from DiabloSport (which are free, too), plus I was told that the same part # will support the '04 Cobras as well, once they are out and added in by DiabloSport. All of this keeps the resale value of the tool up pretty good, too.

Concerning my previous questions, hopefully they will be answered, soon, as I brought up some very valid points, questions, and concerns.

Post #3:

Originally posted by Don 95Vert
Looking at the surface the Diablo thing might seem like a good buy, but it doesn't compare at all. If you are basing your decision on price, just get a Hypertech chip...

Can you show me where the difference of making it "better" really is versus the standard Racer version and the Predator? They've already said that it will allow only limited adjustment, whereas the fuel and timing curves are only allowed to be shifted together and not by individual cells (read my post above).

Furthermore, since it requires, right away, that the user tote around a laptop with them at the track to make simple adjustments, or be near a pc of some sorts (since they've already admitted the tool that will datalog and offer adjustment through the tool, like the Predator, is still being "developed"), then I don't see how paying $449 will be anymore beneficial than the Predator, and what it (the Predator) already offers (datalogging, monitoring, adjustment of tune through the tool, custom tunes through internet, or in person, through DiabloSport, or through a soon to be established base of Revolution dealers across the country).

The Pro Racer version, yes, I will agree that is offers complete tuning ability, but this is for those who are affluent in this, or for those who want to learn it (as you said in comparing to your "college course"), for what could be considered, to some, a steep $795.

I'm still within my 30 day return policy on the Predator, and although I like it a lot, love it, actually (already has proven itself on the dyno and at the track), I could be swayed on upgrading to a better system, for the same or slightly more price (when I say "slightly" I mean the $30 difference between the standard Racer version and the Predator), but I just don't see it, at all. :dontknow:

LotsaFords
10-05-2003, 03:09 PM
Thanks Ken for the qwik response. I kinda wanted to get another EEC, "Dealership found my unchipped, but "TAMPERED" EEC. :(

KenB
10-05-2003, 03:30 PM
Cobrala,

Thanks for starting another thread. I'm am not familiar with the Racer package so this will be answered by SCT. They are in San Diego until Wednesday, so you probably won't get an answer until then.

Ken

jmlay
10-05-2003, 05:42 PM
That is great news to hear!!! THose are some good questions, that I am interestred to hear the answers to, as i am trying to make the same choice as you for the L.

Mike

=============================================

Mike,

That's not true on the DiabloSport Ford Predators, as it is on the GM Predators. I know this for a fact, as not only does it say it right in the manual, but if you have a Ford Predator and try it, you will see exactly that it does unmarry from the VIN (I know, I have one, tried it, and successfully used it on 2 other friends' Cobras). The Predator also works for all 3 of the calibration codes on the Cobra (QUD2, YHD0, YHD1), and will work with any newer ones that may be released by Ford, once a revision update is released for it from DiabloSport (which are free, too), plus I was told that the same part # will support the '04 Cobras as well, once they are out and added in by DiabloSport. All of this keeps the resale value of the tool up pretty good, too.

Concerning my previous questions, hopefully they will be answered, soon, as I brought up some very valid points, questions, and concerns.[/quote]

IWRBB
10-05-2003, 10:42 PM
I'm kind of in this boat myself. The Predator out of the box offers so much potential for my car as it sits. The SCT Racer Package does less and costs more.

Would I get a better tune from SCT? Is Diablosport "hacking" their way towards a tune with some unknowns in the mix? In other words, would I be better off waiting to see how the 03 Cobra engines hold up running the new Predator tunes this coming winter?

As far as shifting the timing and fuel curves.. is that at WOT only? The Predator's adjustment is only at WOT.

Cobrala
10-09-2003, 01:00 AM
TTT

Apten
10-09-2003, 10:53 AM
I will start to reply on this, but I am sure the SCT guys will give more specifics.

What you are paying for is in the tuning, not necessarily the features. I've been using technology that has led up to the SCT package for a long time now, and I can say that the tune and tuning capabilities themselves are much better. As you know good tuning is more than a dyno WOT pull, and there are several parameters and items that I am pretty sure diablo and the competitors are still uneducated with.

For example. I had a customer bring his V10 supercharged F150 to my dyno. He had the kit on for 22K miles, and he wanted to see how the air fuel was. It had a red diablo chip that he purchased specifically for the kit. After two dyno pulls we confirmed that he had been driving with a 14.7:1 a/f thru the whole powerband at WOT, making 292RWHP. Why? Because diablo failed to take the vehicle out of closed loop at WOT, a very common error on some of the newer trucks. We tossed the red chip away, and I tuned it using the methods and knowledge shared between me and the SCT guys. When that customer left, his air/fuel was 11.7:1 and he made 390RWHP. He was doing this with less timing advance than the diablo tune as well.

Another example was a 600RWHP 1996 4V mustang I tuned monday night. He made the same power with an autologic tune, but the car idled at 2500rpm's, had an ISC decel problem, and ran like crap on the streets. I won't mention names, but the car was tuned by a "premier" autologic tuner, and he had to drive serveral hundred miles to this guy who is supposedly one of the best. Using knowledge and training that originally came from this team enabled me to put a big grin on the customer's face after only an hour of dyno time and a short street trip to confirm how well it drove. I show proof every week that good tuning isn't just at WOT, anyone can make numbers at a dyno.

If all of that isn't enough, consider this. How soon do you think you are going to see a predator for a PTEC module or SVT focus? SCT is already there, and you can be sure they know what is going on.

If you are looking for the cheapest package SCT definitely isn't it, but most people that spend money on their car aren't looking to wrap it all together with a less than ideal tune.

my $.02
Brian Herron

SteveC
10-09-2003, 12:59 PM
Apten- very well said.

*copy-paste-save*

Cobrala
10-10-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Apten
If all of that isn't enough, consider this. How soon do you think you are going to see a predator for a PTEC module or SVT focus? SCT is already there, and you can be sure they know what is going on.

Actually, from the looks of it, Brian, SCT will not even have a Focus flasher, or any flasher ready for a while:

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=18492#post18492

Anyways, if the product delivers, then the other stuff you mentioned is just tuning, when it boils down to it. Everyone has their learning curve, and growing pains, just like many SCT dealers will undoubtedly also go through. What about all the soon to be Chipmaster-Revolution dealers that will be supporting the Fords and GMs? Surely you don't believe that there will not be great DiabloSport tuners (and even Autologic tuners) out there?

I still don't see any more reason to return my Predator and get this SCT stuff.

E.K.Engineering
11-07-2003, 04:30 AM
I see no difference with said product and the Tweeker RT for almost half the cost. From what I've seen, this new software is little more than another flashy GUI used to modify the BIN files within the ECU. No matter what you do, you're still stuck with the OEM ECUs limitations(as with the Tweeker). Maybe im just not getting what the big deal is about or am I missing something? Im not trying to bash anyone as I am sure that it will probably be a great tuner with good software and support. I am just trying to justifty the cost premium over the Tweeker as they both do the same thing.

I would appreciate it If you can answer the following questions to help me in my purchasing decision.

1) Can I increase the injector control resolution?

2) Timing resolution?

3) overall timing and fueling accuracy

4) Can I create RPM/load points of my
own choosing?

5) Can I drive low impedance injectors?

Thanks,
Eddy

SCT Guy
11-07-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by E.K.Engineering
I see no difference with said product and the Tweeker RT for almost half the cost. From what I've seen, this new software is little more than another flashy GUI used to modify the BIN files within the ECU. No matter what you do, you're still stuck with the OEM ECUs limitations(as with the Tweeker). Maybe im just not getting what the big deal is about or am I missing something? Im not trying to bash anyone as I am sure that it will probably be a great tuner with good software and support. I am just trying to justifty the cost premium over the Tweeker as they both do the same thing.

I would appreciate it If you can answer the following questions to help me in my purchasing decision.

1) Can I increase the injector control resolution?

2) Timing resolution?

3) overall timing and fueling accuracy

4) Can I create RPM/load points of my
own choosing?

5) Can I drive low impedance injectors?

Thanks,
Eddy

If you dont' think it's worth it, then just go and buy the Tweecer. No one is making you buy this product. How many parameters can a tweecer change, maybe a hundred or two, this has 400 or more. This allows a much better job to be performed. It's not just spark and fuel tables anymore. There is a very, very detailed explanation of what each parameter does and how to change it.

The answer is yes to everything but #5. This is controlled by the drivers in the EEC and not the software. There are boxes available that you put in series with the wires going to the injectors when you are running low impeadance injectors with high impeadance drivers.

Ed Clark
11-07-2003, 10:37 AM
Using the SCT software I have found the stock ECU to be far more complexed and flexible than I ever thought and yes, I've used the Tweecer in the past. There really is no comparison.

Ed

RobL
11-07-2003, 01:45 PM
You cant even compare this product to a TwEECer. How many times have you been playing with your tweecer, see a function and think, "I wonder what that does?". If you have used it extensively, then probably quit a few times. That will not happen with this software, EVERY function has a detailed explanation (as SCT guy stated).

I've used TwEECers and EEC tuners extensively, I've used most software available for the EEC tuner. None of it compares.

Not to mention I don't have to worry about my truck shutting down going 70mph because I drove under power lines. Thats not a fun side effect of an EEC tuner.

Rob

E.K.Engineering
11-07-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by SCT Guy
If you dont' think it's worth it, then just go and buy the Tweecer. No one is making you buy this product. How many parameters can a tweecer change, maybe a hundred or two, this has 400 or more.

Whether I think it's worth it or not, I am still undecided but swaying toward the latter. I was hoping you could convince me otherwise. Is there a comprehensive list of these 200 extra parameters that I can modify on my EEC-IV, documented? I searched on your website and downloaded the demo but I couldn't them. If you can't post all 200 of the extras at least post a few key ones that I would want to modify that I can't w/ the Tweecer.
Originally posted by Ed Clark
Using the SCT software I have found the stock ECU to be far more complexed and flexible than I ever thought and yes, I've used the Tweecer in the past. There really is no comparison.

Not quiet the technical answer I was looking for, that was more like a Steeda-fanclub-member-marketing hype-catalog reciter-type answer than the response I was expecting (maybe im a techspoiled cc.com member;) ).

Maybe this product is marketed and more useful towards the modulars than the EEC-IV guys?
I have downloaded the demo and I will compare the software with the Tweecer that my coworker uses, then I will make my decision based on my evaluations.

Thank to you all for replying,
Eddy

Ed Clark
11-07-2003, 07:07 PM
Thanks for being open minded and kind in manner by not taking cheap shots at insulting me. Very professional.

I CAN read, and your posts are closed minded and not based on any actual use of the software in question. It's not difficult to see that your biased in your thinking for some unknown reason.

You provided no technical data when you referenced the EEC as weak. I'm guessin that's based on your use of other products. My response was telling you it's not as weak as you think. Just as weak as the software you are using to tune it. Use this software and you may think otherwise. But based on your tone I don't think you'll get that far.

Now that I've responded to your comments, please keep in mind this forum is not for debating. I've lowered myself to a degree. If you have serious technical questions regarding the SCT software, please ask them.

Ed


Originally posted by E.K.Engineering
Whether I think it's worth it or not, I am still undecided but swaying toward the latter. I was hoping you could convince me otherwise. Is there a comprehensive list of these 200 extra parameters that I can modify on my EEC-IV, documented? I searched on your website and downloaded the demo but I couldn't them. If you can't post all 200 of the extras at least post a few key ones that I would want to modify that I can't w/ the Tweecer.


Not quiet the technical answer I was looking for, that was more like a Steeda-fanclub-member-marketing hype-catalog reciter-type answer than the response I was expecting (maybe im a techspoiled cc.com member;) ).

Maybe this product is marketed and more useful towards the modulars than the EEC-IV guys?
I have downloaded the demo and I will compare the software with the Tweecer that my coworker uses, then I will make my decision based on my evaluations.

Thank to you all for replying,
Eddy

Don 95Vert
11-07-2003, 08:46 PM
I posted this in another thread, but it's appropriate here too.
If you get a TwEECer what would it cost for a base tune to be thrown in? And not just any base tune - a base tune that comes from a database of tons of cars with the same combo.

What would you have to pay additional for the documentation that comes with this system? It'd be a lot, if you could find it - or you could just post on the egroups and get 3-4 different opinions as to what each function does - and if your lucky one of the opinions will be right.

The bottom line is this really is a revolutionary new product - it puts the power that only the pros have had in the past, in the hands of the individual enthusiast.

The biggest difference of all, is SCT has Jerry, Chris, David and Winston and none of the others do. It's often been said, when people in the past were trying to decide between Autologic, Diablo and some others, that it is NOT the hardware that's important, it's the expertise of the tuner - and in this case SCT is the clear winner - these are the 'guys that know...'. Additionally, the software is a much better than anything out there - it is far more mature than all the stuff that preceded it.

That said, I've had a couple of EEC Tuners and TwEECers and I've tuned a bunch of different cars with both. I've also used the SCT software. I used it tonight to set up a '95 Mustang with a Pro-M MAF and 42# injectors with 3.73 gears and a 4R70W tranny. With the Tweecer I would have probably spent an hour trying to figure out which parameters would change what I wanted to change and hope it worked. With the SCT software, I used 3-4 mouse clicks and that was it. Plus, I could have fiddled with other things if I wanted, because the documentation was right there.

Ed's right, this isn't a forum for arguments its a forum for questions about SCT - please take that elsewhere.

E.K.Engineering
11-08-2003, 03:06 PM
I never said "the EEC is weak" ( I have been burning blanks for years thru brute force address mapping, not even text based), I simply stated, "No matter what you do, you're still stuck with the OEM ECUs limitations(as with the Tweeker)."
Maybe next time, answer in a professional manner and you would be treated as a professional. Answers like “no comparison” or words like “revolutionary” are being used without tech to back them up are unprofessional and will be responded to as such.
I did ask technical (read previous posts) questions and thus far my second post has not been answered, "no comparison" and "revolutionary" did not answer my questions. Please leave that type of hype out and bring on the tech. If you could only answer with "no comparison" or "revolutionary" without backing it up then please take that elsewhere.

Eddy

SCT Guy
11-08-2003, 04:01 PM
I'm not going to publish a list of the parameters that you can change. What you can change varies based on what your application. Since you have not stated what your application is, I cannot even give you a few key values. If you are leaning toward a tweecer, then just go ahead and buy the tweecer. It seems your purpose here is more to convince people that this product is not worth the money, since you have stated that your mind is close to being made up on which tool you are going to use.

The stock ECU is no where near as limited as you think.