How to build a fast N/A 4v

[MTCFORUM]

I know all you 4V guys feel a little left out from a mod standpoint. I know a local guy with a '98 4V cobra. He has just about every bolt on possible, long tube headers (which are real headers), cold air kit, single bore throttle body, underdrive pulleys, and a chip. I think he has hit 290 RWHP on one of his pulls.

So, what's the problem? Why don't these cars respond to these simple mods live a 2V does.

There are a few things.

First, the whole "lacks power" thing in 1999, and even before that, was because the manufacturing guys could not make the valves and valve seats round. So, when the cylinder pressure is high they leak. This causes the loss of peak cylinder pressure and thus a loss of HP. I have personally seen an engine that made 290 HP on an engine dyno, pull the heads off, do a valve job, and the same motor made 318 HP. With just a valve job.

So, the first thing you need to do is pull the heads off and do a valve job. Then a company in Ohio called Fox Lake can do an excellent porting job. The cost for their porting job is $1200 for a set of heads. A stock 4V head flows 250 cfm of air at like .425" lift. A ported 2V head flows about the same as a stock 4V head. So, it stands to reason that a warmed over 2V will make similar power to a 4V.

Now, Fox Lake ported heads change the flow from 250 cfm to 320 cfm. In case this number doesn't mean much to you, my 832 RWHP Oldsmobile has flow numbers of 342 on the "bad" port and 355 on the "good" port. So, this much flow is enough to support alot of power.

So, this is where any of you should start in my opinion. How much power will you make with exhaust, MAF, etc? You'll gain maybe, and I mean maybe, 20 RWHP. For $2000 you can gain about 50 RWHP or even more. I know that sounds like a lot of money but I'll give it to you straight. I see you people (and that's generic you) putting more money that that into some kind of audio system, radios, speakers, amps with more wattage than a 60s Who concert. But, when it comes to power, everyone wants to spend a few hundred dollars and run 13's. Can't happen.

A Cobra manifold or a Gen 2 manifold will support more higher RPM that a set of ported heads will take advantage of. You also need to have your intake manifold extrude honed to increase flow as well.

If you get your heads ported and intake extrude honed, then add your exhaust and MAF, and you will make over 300 RWHP and will run into the 13's with no problem. If you had a good converter and gears, you would easily run 12's.

Your call as to what to do, but if I had a 4V, that's what I would do. I know someone who is planning this on a 4V as well and it will make good power.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

okay me says it's time to chip and and get jerry a Mark

$1200 is a deal for head porting and a valve job. Do they dissasemble and reassemble the heads for that price? Is 320cfm the intake side?

Do you have any alternate head suggestions, or certain years of cobra or other DOHC cars that flowed the better? Is tumble port the way to go?

Brian

[MTCFORUM]

So an extrude honed gen 2 manifold and a good reworking of the heads equals how much? With shipping, aren't we gaining really fast on the blower option???

Bolt-ons make sense to a lot of people because they don't have to be bought all at once. The price is rationalized because it is spread throughout the course of a year, two years, etc. Gears, converter, pulleys, MAF, exhaust, tires and chip should get you into the 13s no problem.

I'm curious as to your opinions on using NOS on an internally stock Mark VIII, a 1993 model especially...

Kale

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It I wanted to make a path for building a low 12 second Mark VIII, here's what I think I Would want to do?.?.?

1) Gears $600
2) Exhaust $500
3) MAS and custom chip $400
4) Houston performance 4V forged Short block $2900
5) Headwork and cam work shipped $2000
6) Higher stall $800
7) Metal matrix driveshaft (aren't these about $400)??

and if that didn't make me happy...
Supercharger, upgraded injectionrs, headers, supporting fuel pump, etc. (another $5K give or take).

That's my opinion, and it would make the perfect Mark for me. Assuming you do the grunt work yourself, you are looking at spending $7600 for a built forged motor cabable of supporting much more HP and maybe even getting you in the 12's N/A. And if that dosen't satisfy me I could drop another $5K or so and add the supercharger and goodies.

Jerry, of the mods you have seen, which ones do you consider "not worthwhile", or the worst bang for the buck?

Thanks!!!
Brian

[MTCFORUM]

Since I can't see all the previous posts it may take me a few posts to answer all the quesitons.

The $1200 from Fox Lake includes disassebly and reassembly. Shipping is extra. But, Ohio is lovely place to drive to (Ha!!).

To run 13's I think it's pretty easy. In my opinion all you need is a chip, good converter, and gears, period. Kris Danner (and he'll correct me on the details) had a 4.6L Bird. Now you may say its not the same, but you're wrong, they are. He had it running in the 13's N/A. If I recall he made in the 240 RWHP range (how he got it is not relavent), had a 3500 rpm stall converter, 3.73 gears and slicks. That's it. I bet the car would have gone mid 13's (13.50-13.70) if he was not running out of 19# fuel injectors. It was going lean on the top end.

I'll have to post a lesson in ET and MPH. To get a good ET all you need is a killer launch (converter and gears). There are 4.6L T-Bird's out there (Johnny Langton has one) that make in the 180-190 RWHP range that are running well into the 14's, like 14.70's. It does not take alot of power to run 13's, just a good launch.

Once you get power, 12's shouldn't be hard at all.

As far as power goes, a good porting job on the heads and intake should be good for around 50 more HP, probably more. If at the same time you open up the exhaust with a set of headers, like Dennis has on his car, you'll gain even more. Once you start flowing air, you have to get it out.

I don't feel a cat back exhaust system is worth anything at all. All the back pressure is made from the cats, not the rest of the system. I know people like to have their car sound a certain way, I like mine to run a certain way.

I don't think underdrive pulleys are worth it. They will gain some power but it's way high up in RPM. realistically, get a bigger alternator pulley and be done with it. The alternator is probably 70% of the drag from the FEAD.

I think all synthetic fluids, engine oil, trans, powersteering, axle, is worth it. You can pretty much see a gain of like 7-10 RWHP on a dyno going to ALL synthetic fluids, not just engine oil.

I think the MAF is only worth a few HP, less than 5 RWHP. I've posted before how a MAF makes power, it shifts the engine leaner. I'd rather see a whole cold air inlet system, like Dennis has been hinting to about coming up with, and do a MAF with this.

On these 4V motors, the only power to be gained is going to be a good set of headers and good exhaust. Now, good exhaust does not mean no cats. You just need to get the cats moved away from teh engine so the exhaust has a chance to cool before getting to the cats. Maybe Kris can post a link to his exhaust system with the cats farther under the car.

I think NOS would be OK with a stock motor if you used it in moderation. Like a blower, NOS will make your motor go bye-bye eventually. Hypereutectic's arent' that forgiving, ask anyone that put a blower on a car with them.

As for head porting and what not getting close to the cost of the blower, yes it will. You spend 2K on porting plus shipping, I don't know what a set of headers costs or exhaust, a good cold air inlet, you will come close to the cost of a blower. But there are a few differences.

First, you pop the hood and tell the Mustang guy, I don't know why it's so fast it's almost stock (truely priceless), second, the strain on the parts being N/A is way, way less. Not only are you making power to the wheels, but the motor must also make power to spin the blower. So a blower car has alot more air flow to make the same the RWHP as an N/A car. More air flow is more cylinder pressure. Most blower guys ventilate their motors several times before getting a combo that is safe (right Dennis and Kris). Blowers are a lot more senstive to changes than an N/A. The main reason I went to florida was because Dennis changed something and the car ran like crap. Kris has ran into similar problems when he had the blower on his 2V. You can beat the snot out of N/A car and not worry that the temp is getting to high and you'll blower it up.

I think I got them all, I'll check after posting.

jerry

[MTCFORUM]

<i>Kris Danner (and he'll correct me on the details) had a 4.6L Bird. Now you may say its not the same, but you're wrong, they are. He had it running in the 13's N/A. If I recall he made in the 240 RWHP range (how he got it is not relavent), had a 3500 rpm stall converter, 3.73 gears and slicks. That's it. I bet the car would have gone mid 13's (13.50-13.70) if he was not running out of 19# fuel injectors. It was going lean on the top end.</i>

Ok details corrections. It was even easier than that. It only made 221 RWHP. It only had a 2800 RPM stall at the time.

And this was a car that was never dyno tuned, only running Jerry's best guess at a chip, which obviously got the job done well.

[MTCFORUM]

I cant believe he said my car ran like crap, what a friend LOL but he is right now stop and think about it spend two or three grand is far better than what I have done, first of all start out with heads have the intake extrude honed and a cold air kit and yes I am working on it, posi rear end good gears 3:73 or 4:10 headers and duals with X pipe, and Jerry's chip and a good stall and you still have a basic stock car, and add NOS in moderation you will be screaming, if you install a blower you are limited to 10 pounds boost do to pistons and rods and a kit is about four grand installed with out a inner cooler, so N/A is one way of going, my car ran perfect when Jerry first did it ran 11.7 at 118 MPH and I smoked the tranny and so I upgraded the blower and raised the stall to 3500 and put it all back together, and it stunk I could not figure out what I did and we figured out it was the increased air flow out of the bypass back washing the maff, drove me nuts so I am now installing a cold air power pipe which gets the maff out of the hood in the fender where cooler air is at, and this places the maff away from the bypass return hopefully curing my severe surge at idle, so you have these headaches with the blowers but when it runs it is awesome.

I now stock ADDCO sway bars for our cars

[MTCFORUM]

One nice thing is that once you get those heads, intake and exhaust flowing right, you won't need as much boost to make big power. It's not about big boost - it's about big airflow!

"If you're not counter-steering, you're not driving."

[MTCFORUM]

Wow. I never knew. I had a 77M ProM on my car mounted where the stock MA was, and the car was struggling with 13.8-14.0 @ 100-101. Then I got a brainwave (have no idea where it came from) and moved the MAF down, out of the engine compartment to the bottom of the bumper cover, and viola! 13.2@103.5. <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0">

[MTCFORUM]

Jerry,

Let's now assume that we have to pass visual inspection aka california style. According to the epa, this means that the cats can't be moved from their original location. You don't have to stay with the originals, but somewhere that the originals are located a smaller set could be installed thus in effect moving them away from the engine by a few inches. How would your recommendations change in a case like this? In May Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and San Antonio will be going to a much more rigourous inspection. OBDII will be (if I understand what the state is saying) computer tested only for emission compliance with a visual. Pre OBDII will be roller tested plus the visual. We are now talking big time dollars if not in compliance.

In the case of the Mark it also means that a set of high flow cats will have to be installed where the 2into2 or 2into1 converter now sits. That doesn't mean that you won't get away with a non-compliance system. I just don't want to pay the thousands in fines. For us non Ca types the epa does not say we can't highly modify our engines, we just have to maintain all of the emission systems in original or bettor form.

[MTCFORUM]

I look at it this way...If the EPA/smog testing really scares you,then keep the OEM downtube/cat setup and put it in the shed,storage building,etc...
And then when it comes time to do your EPA/smog test,swap it back on,and there you go..passed visual,and tailpipe.Just make sure that when you get your exhaust done,you get some ball/socket flanges,and maintain your OEM tubing route,so you can bolt it back up with ease.
Johnny

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sorry to be getting into this late, but this board is a goldmine and I want to make sure I am understanding it right.

My have a 98 LSC that right now is bone stock except for MMC driveshaft, poly diff bushings, and 1-1/4 sways (my compliments to Dennis). I live in MA which is a smog state, so I have to have keep the cats. If I extrude hone the intake and port the heads, will I be drawing too much air in for the (stock) exhaust to handle? Will I need to move up to a larger MAF? I would like to keep my engine compartment stock-looking as long as possible for warranty reasons, but will do what is needed for the health of the car. And from another thread further down here, should I use by own heads or it is really worth the +99 tumbleport heads? I am looking to make reasonable, not crazy, power as a goal. 'Course I know that reasonable is subjective, but I think y'all know what I mean.

I grew up north of Detroit, so I can always justify a trip back to the midwest <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsmile.gif" BORDER="0">

Again, sorry if this is repetative.

robbo


[Modified by robbo, 4:43 AM 3/2/2002]<BR><BR>
[Modified by robbo, 1:23 AM 3/4/2002]

[MTCFORUM]

For those that have to pass a visual Cat inspection the option of R&R the exhaust system sounds like a good plan. The system comes out quick and easy.
There could be another plan for all the "Scoff Laws" out there and that is to Gut the Cats and eliminate back pressure while passing the visual portion of the test. Just make sure your car will pass the mechanical/sniffer test by having it tested at a shop before going for inspection.

[MTCFORUM]

Is there much of a performance advantage between a 5 angle valve job and a 3 angle valve job?

[MTCFORUM]

Can somoe one please explaing ot me what a 5 angle valve job is. I have only heard of a 3 angle job. what are the differences between the two? Thanks

[MTCFORUM]

I sell the equipment to machine shops for doing all phases of automotive machine work. In calling on shops all over the south I have not found even one that offers a 5 angle valve seat. For engines that run as high as 750 horsepower a nornal and correctly done 3 angle seat is fine. IMO any shop that trys to sell a 5 agle valve job is just trying to get deeper into your pockets. There are shops that have machines that can cut a radius seat for you which is as good as you can get unless you can find a shop that has an orbital seat grinder and a radius dresser for it. These are very rare as they havent been made in this country since the '40s. The last one I saw was in a Alfa-Romeo shop that was operated by some former Ferrarri race mechanics from Italy. Dyno Don used to have a Browne & Sharpe orbital seat grinder that he used in the preparation of his race engines bak in the '60s. At that time Ford was producinfg the H.R., M.R., T.Port and Cammers with a radius seat. If you have a friend that has some of this stuff maybe you could look at a head that hasent been butchered too much.

[MTCFORUM]

Speaking on heads, You can see some flow numbers between stock and a three angle valve jobs at corral, in the mod section ( post title and date)
post-Update flow numbers 96-98 4v heads, time and date- 11:48 pm on 02-01-2002...

[MTCFORUM]

Thanks Mel.. BTW you know anyone with any 427 cammer parts? 427 blocks, or anything 427? My dad is looking for some more parts, he has a couple sets of TP heads, stroker kits, and is looking to find a cammer to put in his Daytona Coupe

[MTCFORUM]

JEEESUUS!! Does he have a REAL Daytona Coupe?? I thought the only guys that had them were the Shoens (forgive the spelling) of U-Haul fame.

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You are about 18 years too late for me. At one time I had enough stuff to build 8+ Cammers. I sold it all to a guy that will not part with any of it. Jon Kaase is the only source I can think of off hand. He recently built an engine for Nicholson (Dyno Don) who is building a replica of one of his Comets, (I think). I'll give it some more thought.

[MTCFORUM]

No Mel; no need to wet yourself, its not a real Daytona coupe, It will be a relipca with a tube frame. The last couple I saw sell went for a million $$$ or so.. MY dad has always wanted one since he was a little kid.
We know where 2 cammers are, but am having a hard time gettin ahold of them. The other place I knew where some were was down there in Florida. A guy named Guy soemthing had a whole load of them, then sold them all like 2 years ago. And now after 25 years of being die hard ford, he is racing chevy's..

What did you sell that stuff for in the early 80's? jsut curious..

[MTCFORUM]

XR7 Dave, I was wondering how you moved the MAF out of the engine compartment? Do you have any pics of the setup? Sounds like something worth trying.

Mark
94 4.6 LX