Bronze Tuner ... And then some

[mdrobnak]

SCT Guy:

Ok, I've got the money (in 2 weeks) for the $2000 ALL MUSTANG (88-04) package when it comes out...

But, two things:

a) How much extra for a chip burner (to address the EEC-IV vehicles)

b)How much would it be for data for *1* extra vehicle -- a 1995 Lincoln Town Car?

Thanks SCT Guy. Can't wait to get it!

-Matt

[SCT Guy]

There is a price for what a burner costs, but I have no idea, that's not my area. Send a note to sales and they may be able to answer.

If you buy the other packages, we'll give you a deal on the town car....

[mdrobnak]

I have read some disturbing information here....the $2k that I was prepared to spend only allowed me to get the software..or software + 1 car flasher (not sure..but that doesn't matter)...

I thought the dealer part was a much better deal, but in this (I'd think most people's) case, It's cheaper to just get 3 individual racer packages..but...that's not gonna happen either.

I'm gonna wait for some initial reviews, and then maybe get 1 pro racer package... otherwise it's just not worth it.

-Matt

[KenB]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
I have read some disturbing information here....the $2k that I was prepared to spend only allowed me to get the software..or software + 1 car flasher (not sure..but that doesn't matter)...

I thought the dealer part was a much better deal, but in this (I'd think most people's) case, It's cheaper to just get 3 individual racer packages..but...that's not gonna happen either.

I'm gonna wait for some initial reviews, and then maybe get 1 pro racer package... otherwise it's just not worth it.

-Matt

Did you expect to tune an unlimited amount of Mustangs for $2000?! SCT needs to make some money too.

Your best bet would probably to wait for the mulitple version Pro Racer package (chip version) to come out.

From what I understand it will be $795 for the first car and then an additional charge for each car after that.

Ken

[Andrew WOT]

Originally posted by KenB
Did you expect to tune an unlimited amount of Mustangs for $2000?! SCT needs to make some money too.


:( Here they sounded more philanthropical

Originally posted by SCT Guy

There is no reason you cant' get the tuner package for a little more money and tune your friends cars, maybe that's what we had in mind. In all honesty how many dyno places are there around you that you trust to tune your car? The answer is probably very few. But, how many competent people do you know that are willing to take the time to learn something and then help others, probably more. There are many more smart people without dyno's than there are smart people with dyno's.

[KenB]

Originally posted by Andrew WOT
:( Here they sounded more philanthropical

I'd say the additional $200 a car is pretty damn cheap if you ask me. Either way, it's your choice. This is the best software with the best support and help you will find. If you don't think that's worth paying for, that's your call. The only thing we can do is provide you with facts to make an informed decision.

Are the "other" guys going to have a support structure like this?

[Andrew WOT]

Originally posted by KenB
I'd say the additional $200 a car is pretty damn cheap if you ask me. Either way, it's your choice. This is the best software with the best support and help you will find. If you don't think that's worth paying for, that's your call. The only thing we can do is provide you with facts to make an informed decision.

Are the "other" guys going to have a support structure like this?

This is what I'm trying to do, "make the informed decision".
And I'm not saying anyhing about "other guys" or their support or a lack of such as well as yours. I haven't seen your product alive in action and I haven't experienced your "the best support" yet as well.
So far all we have here is just a presale advertising campaign.
It's just too early to make any decision.

[mdrobnak]

Well, my point was the same as Andrew WOTs...there's been a lot of misinformation going around..I was under the impression that I would be able to tune 3 - 4 cars with the $2000 package...As it seems that is not the case, I will probably get one, but *only* one.

-Matt

[KenB]

Well if you consider this pre sale advertising, fine. I consider this support. This forum is unprecedented in the tuning industry. Show me one place where you can go and ask any question and get the answer straight from the vendor and manufacturer. A no BS answer at that.

And this type of attention will continue after the product launches. In fact it will only improve.

Ken

[belacyrf]

I agree with Ken... they have been very good about answering all of our questions. And if they don't know, they say they don't know. It's been straightforward no sunshine up your arse answers.

I think pre-sale support is just as important as post sale support. And if a company is willing to give you one, without taking your money, they most certainly will probably give you the post-sale support after they have your money. Support is a cost, and can sometimes be one of the larger costs a company needs to lay out. Every minute SCT Guy and Ken spend on here answering questions is costing their company money. If they are willing to spend the time and money to answer quetions without having taken in a dime from an end user, that just shows that they put value in support. There is no reason to think it will change post-sale. At least I dont' think so... we'll see

[Andrew WOT]

And we all certaintly appreciate them trying to answer all asked here questions.
If it stays the same and like KenB said even better after they get my money that would rule. :headbang:
BTW are you planning to have hot line phone support as well for emergency sort of situations?
:cheers:

[mdrobnak]

Ken -
I never said that getting answers from the manufacturer was a bad a thing -- I was just saying that there were probably quite a few people who had similar ideas to me about that package. That's all. Now that it's cleared up, as I said, I will probably still buy one of them, as I still belive in the product, but it is not worth my while to buy multiples of them at this time.

-Matt

[jturmel]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
I have read some disturbing information here....the $2k that I was prepared to spend only allowed me to get the software..or software + 1 car flasher (not sure..but that doesn't matter)...

I thought the dealer part was a much better deal, but in this (I'd think most people's) case, It's cheaper to just get 3 individual racer packages..but...that's not gonna happen either.

I'm gonna wait for some initial reviews, and then maybe get 1 pro racer package... otherwise it's just not worth it.

-Matt

The Racer packages won't allow you to "fully" tune the custom vehicles. So while you can buy 3 individual setups like that what happens when the fourth car rolls around and you have to buy another, now you're over the cost of the dealer package. For $2,000 +$200 per chip you're getting a heck of a deal, if you ended up figuring things out and being able to tune the cars you could make some serious money from only a $2,000 investment.

Now how is that for a better deal?

-Turmel

[mdrobnak]

Huh? The Racer Pro is the same as the bronze dealer, except for 1 specific car only. At least that is how I understand it. As for the three people, it was going to be for myself and two friends (ie, pretty cheap to near free)..But if there's seperate hardware for each person too...I'm not interested. As for the $200 a chip argument -- do you have any idea what's actually inside those chip casings? I'll just say this: not much. And certainly not worth $200 a chip. The price most people pay for dynotuning is insane -- tuner knowledge is one thing..hardware prices are another. Unfortuantely, when you don't have much competition, you can set your prices however you wish.

-Matt

[KenB]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
Huh? The Racer Pro is the same as the bronze dealer, except for 1 specific car only. At least that is how I understand it. As for the three people, it was going to be for myself and two friends (ie, pretty cheap to near free)..But if there's seperate hardware for each person too...I'm not interested. As for the $200 a chip argument -- do you have any idea what's actually inside those chip casings? I'll just say this: not much. And certainly not worth $200 a chip. The price most people pay for dynotuning is insane -- tuner knowledge is one thing..hardware prices are another. Unfortuantely, when you don't have much competition, you can set your prices however you wish.

-Matt

You're absolutely right. The charge for the chips have a profit built into them. That's how SCT is going to make money. If they don't make money, they don't stay in business.

Ken

[mdrobnak]

Oh, and one last thing to address this chip issue:

One of the main selling points was "no chip" to deal with -- reflash and go.

So..why should I have to deal with chips?

As someone else put it...it should be one price for hardware..and then 'license' packages for the software.

It could have been done in tiers:

Ie:

$400 for flasher hardware -- hell even $500 maybe.

Up to 2 cars $400 for software
Up to 4 cars $750
Up to 8 cars $1000
Up to 16 cars $1800

After 16 $150 each additional car..

THAT seems reasonable to me for an 'entry-level' tuner cost structure...Still get a payout on each car, and still not kill the tuner, and not have to keep buying more and more hardware.

-Matt

[mdrobnak]

Ken -

I realize this..I just dont think most realize just how much they make off those blank chips.

(I posted before I saw your post)

-Matt

[jturmel]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
Huh? The Racer Pro is the same as the bronze dealer, except for 1 specific car only. At least that is how I understand it. As for the three people, it was going to be for myself and two friends (ie, pretty cheap to near free)..But if there's seperate hardware for each person too...I'm not interested. As for the $200 a chip argument -- do you have any idea what's actually inside those chip casings? I'll just say this: not much. And certainly not worth $200 a chip. The price most people pay for dynotuning is insane -- tuner knowledge is one thing..hardware prices are another. Unfortuantely, when you don't have much competition, you can set your prices however you wish.

-Matt

I'm not going to turn this in to a flame war.

As for the cost of the chip, it's not the physical materials that so much determine the price as it is the received value from having the car "custom" tuned, even blank chips aren't THAT cheap for the tuners already out there that is why the current dyno tuning seems high anyways is because after you tack on cost of dyno time plus the cost of the chip to the tuner they have to add in their time spent and you're pushing $500 to $600 already.

:)

-J

[mdrobnak]

J -

Honestly, I'm not trying to do that either. I was just trying to explain my position.

I understand the value of the tune..Please re-read what I said. I said, "tuner knowledge is one thing..hardware prices are another"

What I mean by that is YES, you're paying for the tuner. No, neither the tuner, nor you should have to pay the prices you do for those chips. *That* was my point.

But, please clarify what you originally meant about not being able to fully tune..

As I understand it:

Racer Pro allows access to everything on *your car* along with value files for anything pertinent (ie, spark for blower, cylinder heads, etc), MAF curves, etc. Thus I don't see how it wouldn't be able to be "fully" tuned.

Just trying to understand,
-Matt

[jturmel]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
J -

Honestly, I'm not trying to do that either. I was just trying to explain my position.

I understand the value of the tune..Please re-read what I said. I said, "tuner knowledge is one thing..hardware prices are another"

What I mean by that is YES, you're paying for the tuner. No, neither the tuner, nor you should have to pay the prices you do for those chips. *That* was my point.

But, please clarify what you originally meant about not being able to fully tune..

As I understand it:

Racer Pro allows access to everything on *your car* along with value files for anything pertinent (ie, spark for blower, cylinder heads, etc), MAF curves, etc. Thus I don't see how it wouldn't be able to be "fully" tuned.

Just trying to understand,
-Matt

The Racer packages won't allow you to tune the values of those items, while the Pro Racer one's will.

Again it's not the cost of manufacturing the chip that determines price it's the scarcity and utility from the item that determines price, simple economics as with anything else out there.

-J

[mdrobnak]

Ah, I see the misunderstanding now..

I knew the difference between regular and pro -- I never planned on getting the plain Racer one, always Pro.

-Matt

[Andrew WOT]

Originally posted by mdrobnak
Unfortuantely, when you don't have much competition, you can set your prices however you wish.

-Matt

Hopefully not for too long.

[Powered By Mofo]

Some of us prefer chips... Personally, i dont want to be screwing around at the track. I would want to test my 2 way or hopefully a 4 way and just go. Although we could use a Wideband on the street, the dyno still shows if improvements were made or lost. Youre going to be one frustrated individual trying to baseline tunes strictly on the track. The aid of a mobile wide band will allow you to dial in your street tune for safety and power. The track is a entirely different animal.

So, reflasher or chip? ill take the chip.

SCT is obviously going to be the only people placing the power of a dyno tuner in the hands of the owners. Doubt you will see this coming from brand X. You gotta give props when props are due and they definately deserve it.:thumb:

[ByByC5]

Ken,
Your Quote::
"Did you expect to tune an unlimited amount of Mustangs for $2000?! SCT needs to make some money too. "

UH YEA?!
That is what anyone would think.
With each additional year model that comes along SCT will make money on those up dates.

This software is a tool is it not??

Maybe I have not understood what the Bronze package will allow me to do.

If I have a shop and repair, modify, mustangs and need to custom tune some of the cars I work on, will I have to buy a liscence for each car?? Did I miss something here?
I understand needing to purchase a chip for each car..that is obvious. But to reflash for any change made to a car (obd2 eecV)and charge me for it I don't see.
To pay out some fee per each car I tune is like having SCT as a partner in my business.
Plese tell me I missunderstood something!

So when I purchase tools from Snap on or Mac..whoever, am I going to pay a "Royalty fee" everytime I use their tools??

I am confused...could you please clear this up for me?
Thank you,
Keith

[KenB]

Yes, you misunderstood. You either:

A) Have to buy a chip for each car which obviously has some margin built into it. You can burn that chip an unlimited amount of times.

B) Buy a flasher for each car which would be the same price. You can flash that same car an unlimited amount of times.

So basically flashing is no more expensive than using a chip, but it's also no cheaper.

You'll have to check with them on this to be sure. I'm not selling the dealer packages so I'm not 100% familiar with the pricing structure.
I'm sure SCT will correct me if I'm wrong.

Ken

[ByByC5]

Thanks for the reply,
I guess the Flasher hardware per car is what is confusing me.

I used to work at a ford dealer and I reflashed 100's of cars for calibration updtes and other things. The hardware used for reprogramming did not stay in the car as we plugged into the ALDL OBD2 port under the dash and made the flash, then removed it.

I also have some GM tuning software that allows flashing through the ALDL port, for certain model cars. But there is no hardware that stays for each car.

So there must be some sort of hardware that stays with each car?
Kind of like the chip that plugs into pcm on the chip version?
I wonder does this have to remain plugged into the ALDL port? Or is it only used during the Flash?
Is it a cable that "marries" the VIN # stored in the PCM to the cable, thus allowing only one cable per car?

Sure would be nice to see a few pic's!

Thank you for the information!!!

Keith

:thumb:

[KenB]

Without guessing too much about their business plan, I believe it's for licensing purposes. Right now, companies like this make money off the chips the sell you to tune a car. If they gave you a flasher than you can flash any car with, they would lose the bulk of their revenue. The flasher does not stay on the car.

[WhiteDevil]

Originally posted by KenB
Without guessing too much about their business plan, I believe it's for licensing purposes. Right now, companies like this make money off the chips the sell you to tune a car. If they gave you a flasher than you can flash any car with, they would lose the bulk of their revenue. The flasher does not stay on the car.
Somehow Craftsman stays in business. I can go and buy $1,000 worth of tools, open a shop and they don't charge me 10% of the initial cost of the tools every time I fix a vehicle, and the tools work on more than just FORDS! Software prices are crazy, sometimes people are way to proud of themselves for moving bits around a processor. Make this affordable and more people would use it, sales would go up and more people would be happy.

-p

[KenB]

Originally posted by WhiteDevil
Somehow Craftsman stays in business. I can go and buy $1,000 worth of tools, open a shop and they don't charge me 10% of the initial cost of the tools every time I fix a vehicle, and the tools work on more than just FORDS! Software prices are crazy, sometimes people are way to proud of themselves for moving bits around a processor. Make this affordable and more people would use it, sales would go up and more people would be happy.

-p

I'm not going to argue with you. If you don't agree with it, maybe you can find other software that fits your needs. This is a niche market, you cannot compare it to craftsman. We are talking about the dealer package here. How many dyno tuners in the country are there? hundreds? maybe a few thousand? that's not many. This is much more than moving bits around. There is a tremendous about of R&D that has gone into this. Over 3000 dyno pulls this year. You get much more than software that allow you to tune. You get value files and tons of help. Instead of needing to do 10 pulls on someone's car, you will most likely cut that in half or less with this package because most of the work is done.

Either way, this conversation is about the tuners package. Not sold or supported on this site. So please take this up with SCT.


Ken

[silver_2000]

Just a comment

I think that some of the concern here is based on conflicting info posted in various places.

another concern is that after investing X dollars for tuner software you have to spend X more to tune each addtl vehicle. If you add any profit a "dealer" or "tuner" would have to charge $500 or more for a chip or flash for a vehicle.

Seems steep... compared to current options for performance enhancements.

My $0.02

[Eatoncharged]

Originally posted by silver_2000
Just a comment

I think that some of the concern here is based on conflicting info posted in various places.

another concern is that after investing X dollars for tuner software you have to spend X more to tune each addtl vehicle. If you add any profit a "dealer" or "tuner" would have to charge $500 or more for a chip or flash for a vehicle.

Seems steep... compared to current options for performance enhancements.

My $0.02
Uh what are you doing here flamer?

[SteveC]

Just to have perspective here- to buy a Diablo blank from Diablo "dealer cost" is very comparable in price to what SCT is charging.

There's more to a chip than the components inside of it- you have R&D costs, manufacturing costs, etc. You think it's cheap to manufacture small batches of chips for a specialized application? Plus the chip casing/epoxy protectant- again a customized application.

When I was building custom fuel rails people squaked about price.... but you don't realize how each small thing drives the price up and then try to make a profit...?

I bet they are not making as much you think on each chip.

[Rancherlee]

Some people hate it, others see it as a great deal. The way I see it is 795$ isn't too bad with the support you get and the abilities you have with this device. Heck, a GOOD mail order chip costs ya 300-350$ then you make a few changes on you car and its another 100+$ for a reburn, then a few more changes the next year another 100+$ and you still STUCK with something YOU can't tweek. Say you have 3 Ford vehicals you want tuned/chipped. 795+200+200 is 1195 for SCT which is pretty good considering 3 chips will cost ya 900-1050$ (then add 300$ for a reburn on each one) for something you CAN'T tweek or tune your self.

and IF you decided to start tuning cars on the side if your "good" charging them 300$ for a tune nets you a 100$ profit for each car when they pay the dyno fee, 20 cars tuned has your "dealer" setup payed off free and clear. And say you charge them 100-150$ for a retune, thats pure profit for your pocket since you already have there "vin" number flash/chip payed for.

To me this is a pretty good deal, and I agree with there price structure. Could it be cheaper? yes, and would product/tune support be lacking and suffer? YES

[jturmel]

Well said.

[silver_2000]

Originally posted by Rancherlee
and IF you decided to start tuning cars on the side if your "good" charging them 300$ for a tune nets you a 100$ profit for each car when they pay the dyno fee, 20 cars tuned has your "dealer" setup payed off free and clear. And say you charge them 100-150$ for a retune, thats pure profit for your pocket since you already have there "vin" number flash/chip payed for.

To me this is a pretty good deal, and I agree with there price structure. Could it be cheaper? yes, and would product/tune support be lacking and suffer? YES

If you buy the one racer pack and make lots of tweaks to your car its not a bad deal BUT....

it looks like the chips are $300 by themselves so you need to charge $400 for the dyno tune or for any tune for that matter to make a profit -

I was just trying to compare to what the market price is now. Right now you can get a chip for 250 or less with a tune for your truck. The question was how many people will see enough "value" to spend $150 more ( 60% more ) than the current market price ? I guess time will tell

Sounds like a great idea. Hope it works

Doug

[kdanner]

Individual chips are $199, not $300.

It is $299 if you want to add a second car to your pro racer package. This is not just a chip, this is a chip and a pre customized file for your individual car. I see so called tuners selling pre burned individual chips in the $250-$350 range. The add on package for a second car is essentially the same as these mail order chips, except you get a real calibration from someone who actually knows what they are doing, not a generic toon from someone who actually does no more than download a file that is pre made by someone else and burns it on a chip, plus you get the ability to fine tune from there. Since the price is about the same, it looks like a hell of a deal to me. That's just today. Very soon it will be the flasher for the same price, and no one else offers the end user the ability to make custom files and flash the EEC. This is real important with all the new stuff going to processors that cannot be chipped, and is exactly why the Focus guys are so hungry to get the flasher, no one else has anything for them. This will be the same with the 04 F150 and the 05 Mustang.

There is another company using the name revolution for a product, but this is the only one that is truly revolutionary. The days of being dependent on someone else to take care of reburns, and the constant shipping back and forth to get it right are over.

[silver_2000]

Originally posted by kdanner
Individual chips are $199, not $300.

It is $299 if you want to add a second car to your pro racer package. This is not just a chip, this is a chip and a pre customized file for your individual car.

The only place I could find pricing for chips was here

http://www.modulardepot.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=13

It lists the price at 299....

It wasnt clear that the chip included a custome program for a second car and only apllied to the racers packages

My mistake

[jturmel]

Package Includes:

SCT 4 bank chip
Database for the additional car
Base tune for the additional car

The DB and base tune are what they are referring to.

-J